Cobra Jet vs. Boss IM Comparisons

[re-rx7]

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

[Dan12GT]

Originally Posted by kdanner You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do. You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows: 1-2 9000 RPM 2-3 8700 RPM 3-4 7700 RPM Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again. Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?

For 1 most of use don't live at the track so we are looking for something easily tangible as a measure to go by if the investment in an expensive manifold is worth it or not.

2. Say all you want about dyno numbers yes, they don't equal a translation to track results but if you take a car already setup with a boss manifold rip that off on the same day with the same dyno in the same relative atmospheric conditions / temperatures and you see a consistent number difference with a new setup I think its pretty easy to say now you have some form of evidence to make a decision if it's worth it or not.

3. The Boss manifold has a consistent dyno proven history of the numbers falling hard under ~6500 rpms. That's been proven consistent on many comparisons on many dyno's on many cars. Obviously the results will vary but all are consistent with what to expect.

The guy on SVT Performance was essentially trying to show the comparison.

Unless your are making a serious amount of more power say like 30+ or more I think you can expect to see track results given you are a excellent consistent driver, which again most of us are not so its harder for us to use the track results as a medium for comparison.

[kdanner]

Originally Posted by Rebelracer568 I understand. People dont like forum. Heck there alot of bs on this forum. All I was stating is what I read on the link. No reason to get butt hurt over stating something. I dont believe half of stuff I read on forum cause most time people are full of it. Now I dont think there is a big difference between the to intakes. But its also a drag intake. Boss is designed for road racing. Hence BOSS intake. So the cobra jet intake will be better than boss for drag racing.

Actually this forum is great compared to most.

I don't know how you have determined one is for road racing and the other is for drag racing when the runner length is identical, and the runner volume is nearly identical. Put CJ on a Boss302S/R and it will certainly lap quicker than it will with the Boss manifold. The Boss had some compromises made for factory assembly, it has plenty of firewall clearance so the assembly workers can install the engine from the bottom like every other Mustang. The CJ removes these compromises. It also removes the cost compromise of re-purposing the original GT throttle body.

I've owned the CJ manifold for 6 months, I had the Boss 302 engine before you could even buy a Boss 302 Mustang, I don't rely on someone else to do any of the work or even tuning, I have actual experience and real results, I'm not just making things up as I go based on what some wannabe tooner with a pack full of nutswingers on SVTP tells people. And BTW Shaun's power curves suck, look how they fall off above 6500. These cars can absolutely flatline from 6500 until the PCM quits, he's missing a bunch up top.

[Rebelracer568]

So with that being said. The only difference between the boss 302 intake and cj is the fact your have to run a gt500 tb and cai. So that giving you the extra hp. Im not knocking you or anything. More air and fuel and a different tune is hp difference between the two so yes the cj would be better on boss 302s. I was just saying the boss intake is designed for the boss mustang which is a road course car, and the cobra jet is designed for the drag car.
Its funny you say how his car falls after 6500. My car with boss intake makes peak hp at 6800rpms

[Dominic Toretto]

Originally Posted by Dan12GT Comparing 2 cars with similar mods isn't the best method. Using the same car, same day, same temps, same dyno, same atmospheric conditions would control the variations the best.

I agree, you are 100% correct.

Originally Posted by kdanner You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results.

I understand your point to a degree. Yes a manifold will perform differently with the car not moving as opposed to being on a track with ambient air being forced to the induction system. However, a dyno, for the time being, is the best method of comparing the two parts.

Trying to compare that on a track is going to be unimaginably more difficult. I would say do this same dyno, then on the same day put the car with both intakes on an automatic(to reduce driver error) and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Dan12GT For 1 most of use don't live at the track so we are looking for something easily tangible as a measure to go by if the investment in an expensive manifold is worth it or not. 2. Say all you want about dyno numbers yes, they don't equal a translation to track results but if you take a car already setup with a boss manifold rip that off on the same day with the same dyno in the same relative atmospheric conditions / temperatures and you see a consistent number difference with a new setup I think its pretty easy to say now you have some form of evidence to make a decision if it's worth it or not. 3. The Boss manifold has a consistent dyno proven history of the numbers falling hard under ~6500 rpms. That's been proven consistent on many comparisons on many dyno's on many cars. Obviously the results will vary but all are consistent with what to expect. The guy on SVT Performance was essentially trying to show the comparison. Unless your are making a serious amount of more power say like 30+ or more I think you can expect to see track results given you are a excellent consistent driver, which again most of us are not so its harder for us to use the track results as a medium for comparison.

+1! This guy understand the point of this thread.

-Alex

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

Haha, very true.

In my opinion, what an owner needs to do is sit back and think about the end goal of what they want from their car and how they will use it primarily. Everyone has a different idea what they want from their car from being a monster at the track, from a roll on the high way, autocross or just a fun all around street car. I think what a lot of owners seem to forget is that when you typically mod a car to be strong in one area you are giving something up in another. But as long as the owner is happy with it is what matters.

Myself, I'd like an all around strong performing street car that is fun as hell to drive. Strong power, good handling for my country backroad driving that I do love so much and some occasional drag racing/pull with friends. I know that focusing on the handling more I will have to sacrifice some of the launching ability of my car and I'm okay with that. My days of spending every weekend at the track chasing magical ET numbers are over for me. While it will never be the fastest track car here, it will certainly be very fun to drive.

[Dominic Toretto]

-Alex

[ochoblanco]

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

You're arguing against kdanner and wbt... And excuse my complete assholeness but its coming from you who completely shit talked about how fast your NA s197 is/would be. I'd bet as much as you want that kdanner or wbt stock would destroy you. So I take what they say or BruceH and learn from it.

[wbt]

Originally Posted by Rebelracer568 If you read the whole thing shaun at aed says intake s are basically the same and believes the few extra hp come from the bigger throttle body and cai. I see this being true.the cobra jet tb is larger than our 80mm tb. Is it worth the money I personally dont think so. But drag racers want every little hp. I think its awesome intake but not worth the extra money

I am using a stock GT500 TB which probably has less surface area than the stock 80mm unit. Shaun is just guessing.

IMO the gains over the Boss come from a more efficient upper plenum design specifically where it meets with the runners.

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

So how much HP did your car make on a dyno and what times did it run at the track on the same night I ran my car?

Originally Posted by ochoblanco You're arguing against kdanner and wbt... And excuse my complete assholeness but its coming from you who completely shit talked about how fast your NA s197 is/would be. I'd bet as much as you want that kdanner or wbt stock would destroy you. So I take what they say or BruceH and learn from it.

It already happened. See above.

We are sharing our experience with you guys and I think we have proven what works and what doesn't. Both of us have had 3+ years of experience at the track with these cars and spent a lot of time and money developing our combinations. We both have spent much longer than that doing this sport. We don't know everything and I have yet to meet anyone who does. It's a constant learning curve.

I understand what we do doesn't apply to everyone's needs and there are some who will disagree or want to argue. If some of you want to spend money on stuff that doesn't work that's fine. If some of you want to use dyno numbers as gospel that is fine. I think Jeff's car is a perfect example where it put down good numbers on a dyno but can't get down the track. He built the house before the foundation and now he is stuck trying to figure out how to put a foundation under it.

For those wondering about comparing results between the stock intake and Boss intake. Similar conditions, different days at the track, same mods minus the intake change.

Stock intake:


Boss intake:


Like I posted in the sticky, there are gains to be had using the Boss intake. It doesn't really make more peak HP vs. the stock intake however from ~6,800 to 7,700+ it makes the same power (unless you are using an AED tune). The advantage to this when drag racing is you are making peak power longer resulting in better times.

The CJ intake has a similar power curve as the Boss but is a more efficient design which results in more TQ/HP. Is it worth spending ~$1K for the needed parts vs. ~$450 for the Boss? As mentioned, it depends on your goals.

[BLK2012GT]

Originally Posted by ochoblanco You're arguing against kdanner and wbt... And excuse my complete assholeness but its coming from you who completely shit talked about how fast your NA s197 is/would be. I'd bet as much as you want that kdanner or wbt stock would destroy you. So I take what they say or BruceH and learn from it.

Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy. I want to have a fun car to drive and I have it. And I'm not arguing with anyone. I really haven't read shit what they've said in this post except for when he said I was full of bullshit about what I said which what I said is true. At the track who cares about midrange gains when you are at 6k or above the whole time you're racing.

[BLK2012GT]

Originally Posted by SlowGreyGT Haha, very true. In my opinion, what an owner needs to do is sit back and think about the end goal of what they want from their car and how they will use it primarily. Everyone has a different idea what they want from their car from being a monster at the track, from a roll on the high way, autocross or just a fun all around street car. I think what a lot of owners seem to forget is that when you typically mod a car to be strong in one area you are giving something up in another. But as long as the owner is happy with it is what matters. Myself, I'd like an all around strong performing street car that is fun as hell to drive. Strong power, good handling for my country backroad driving that I do love so much and some occasional drag racing/pull with friends. I know that focusing on the handling more I will have to sacrifice some of the launching ability of my car and I'm okay with that. My days of spending every weekend at the track chasing magical ET numbers are over for me. While it will never be the fastest track car here, it will certainly be very fun to drive.

Exactly. I've had my days at the track 10 years ago when I lived there every weekend. I could careless now. Sure i'll go every now and then but I'm not going to try to break records and shit. Hence why I haven't bought another set of wheels and slicks. My car is a fast fun street car and that's what I wanted.

[Dominic Toretto]

Originally Posted by wbt The CJ intake has a similar power curve as the Boss but is a more efficient design which results in more TQ/HP. Is it worth spending ~$1K for the needed parts vs. ~$450 for the Boss? As mentioned, it depends on your goals.

So the thread has now come full circle. We saw this on the dyno charts. So what was all the back and forth banter for lol?

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy. I want to have a fun car to drive and I have it. And I'm not arguing with anyone. I really haven't read shit what they've said in this post except for when he said I was full of bullshit about what I said which what I said is true. At the track who cares about midrange gains when you are at 6k or above the whole time you're racing.

That's a damn gd post. I don't live my life a qtr at a time. I'm not chasing a magic time slip.

[wbt]

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy. I want to have a fun car to drive and I have it. And I'm not arguing with anyone. I really haven't read shit what they've said in this post except for when he said I was full of bullshit about what I said which what I said is true. At the track who cares about midrange gains when you are at 6k or above the whole time you're racing.

With you on the bottle maybe. I am not a street racer but a couple of months ago I offered to meet you and line up at Ennis. I showed, ran 10's, and you never bothered to introduce yourself and take that offer up. The way I see it is you spent a lot of money on an 11 sec. car. History isn't on your side when making claims.

Originally Posted by Dominic Toretto So the thread has now come full circle. We saw this on the dyno charts. So what was all the back and forth banter for lol? -Alex

Like I mentioned in this post:
http://www.dfw50s.com/showpost.php?p=48018&postcount=6

....I need more data before saying it is worth spending the extra $1K on a CJ setup. I'll update the sticky as we capture more info. Someone else's dyno numbers don't provide me the data I need.

[BLK2012GT]

Originally Posted by wbt With you on the bottle maybe. I am not a street racer but a couple of months ago I offered to meet you and line up at Ennis. I showed, ran 10's, and you never bothered to introduce yourself and take that offer up. The way I see it is you spent a lot of money on an 11 sec. car. History isn't on your side when making claims. Like I mentioned in this post: http://www.dfw50s.com/showpost.php?p=48018&postcount=6 ....I need more data before saying it is worth spending the extra $1K on a CJ setup. I'll update the sticky as we capture more info. Someone else's dyno numbers don't provide me the data I need.

There's no point of arguing with you about your car and my car on the streets. One you know everything and anything about these coyotes (ok) and two you don't street race. Prime example my car is faster then what it appears at the track, I race a person in this group and we ran the same time and mph at the track. But we did a 30 roll starting in 2nd gear in mexico and I walked him like he was standing still. It wasn't even a close race. But I expected that since I make 100 rwhp then he does. So if we did ever race on the streets I don't think your car has a chance against mine. Sorry that's my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.