Auto-X tires and rim widths

[Rebelracer568]

Think im going to try some ra-1's they grip well and have pretty good life. My buddy at chicane 23 is the guy on tires

[Fair]

Originally Posted by Rebelracer568 Think im going to try some ra-1's they grip well and have pretty good life.

Toyo makes some of the worst R compound tires around. Seriously - ask any racer who is stuck using them in a spec or tire spec'd class (CMC, AI, Spec Miata, etc). The only racers on Toyo tires are ones that have to be on Toyo tires. I have been labeled a "Toyo Hater" by some, and I was even tricked into buying a set of Toyo R1Rs on our Mustang (shown below). Horrible pieces of sh!t that had terrible grip and horrific wear. They were the slowest in our private tire test in May 2011.



The RA-1 makes about the exact same grip as many of the modern 140-180 treadwear "Extreme summer" tires but has worse wear. I've tested RA-1s back to back against Yokohamas, Bridgestones, Hankooks and others, with data logging and timing equipment, and they were not any faster in any measure except wear. We raced in Street Touring classes for years, and would often switch to R-compounds at events to see back-to-back differences. We tried RA-1 tires on 2 different occasions, but were faster on street tires. We have done many tire tests over the past decade. RA-1s are at the bottom of my "recommended tire list". The very very bottom.



Now, autocrossing comes down to two main things: weight and tires. For the most part you cannot lower weight from an S197 enough to make a radical difference in times. These are big, heavy cars, and we're pretty much stuck with 3400-3600# curb weights. But we can do something about tires. My advice: GO AS BIG AS YOU CAN AFFORD. You can never have too much tire in autocrossing, or tracking, in an S197.



The widest wheel that easily fits these cars front and rear is an 18x10, with the offset around +43 or so. Anything wider either A) doesn't fit or B) will need different front and rear offsets. And by "fit" I mean it fits under the stock fender contours. Vorshlag pioneered this fitment several years ago.


Kumho V710 R-compound tire in 315/35/18 on Forgestar F14 in 18x11" on 2013 GT, lowered 2.5"

One of the more popular set-ups we sell lately is an 18x11" Forgestar for $350/each. It is light, it is very wide, it is the proper diameter (18" - just big enough to clear the 14" brakes, and nothing more) and it fits under the stock fender contours with nothing more than a little negative camber up front. These will not rotate front to back and have significantly different offsets on each axle.


305/650/18 Continental Slicks on a 11" forgestar F14

These 11" wide wheels will work well with a 285 to 315mm wide tire. One of the popular sizes to use with it is the 295/35/18, and another is a 315/35/18. Not a ton of choices in those two sizes, but there are some good ones.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Projects...heel-teesting/

The gallery above shows some of the wheel and tire testing we've done on S197s. Dozens of different wheel brands and widths we have tested, including wheels we had custom built to fit these cars. That 18x10 ET43 came from us, on a run of wheels we made 100 of to get them out there, which everyone later copied.



We've stepped up to a 18x12" wheel on both ends on our TT3 Time Trial Mustang, and flared the fronts for use with up to a 335mm tire. We usually still run on 315/30/18 Hoosier R6 or A6 tires, though, as they are much more common and easier to get. Plenty of grip. For a mostly street car I'd use a ~180-200 treadwear 275/40/18 on an 18x10" and be happy.

Note: the 18x10 "drift" wheel is a cheap and super heavy wheel that is shunned from virtually all S197 racers. Absolute boat anchor wheels... but they are super cheap, so street guys flock to them. Not racers - way too heavy. Adding rotating inertia like this is extremely detrimental to competition use.

Cheers,

[Rebelracer568]

Originally Posted by Fair Toyo makes some of the worst R compound tires around. Seriously - ask any racer who is stuck using them in a spec or tire spec'd class (CMC, AI, Spec Miata, etc). The only racers on Toyo tires are ones that have to be on Toyo tires. I have been labeled a "Toyo Hater" by some, and I was even tricked into buying a set of Toyo R1Rs on our Mustang (shown below). Horrible pieces of sh!t that had terrible grip and horrific wear. They were the slowest in our private tire test in May 2011. The RA-1 makes about the exact same grip as many of the modern 140-180 treadwear "Extreme summer" tires but has worse wear. I've tested RA-1s back to back against Yokohamas, Bridgestones, Hankooks and others, with data logging and timing equipment, and they were not any faster in any measure except wear. We raced in Street Touring classes for years, and would often switch to R-compounds at events to see back-to-back differences. We tried RA-1 tires on 2 different occasions, but were faster on street tires. We have done many tire tests over the past decade. RA-1s are at the bottom of my "recommended tire list". The very very bottom. Now, autocrossing comes down to two main things: weight and tires. For the most part you cannot lower weight from an S197 enough to make a radical difference in times. These are big, heavy cars, and we're pretty much stuck with 3400-3600# curb weights. But we can do something about tires. My advice: GO AS BIG AS YOU CAN AFFORD. You can never have too much tire in autocrossing, or tracking, in an S197. The widest wheel that easily fits these cars front and rear is an 18x10, with the offset around +43 or so. Anything wider either A) doesn't fit or B) will need different front and rear offsets. And by "fit" I mean it fits under the stock fender contours. Vorshlag pioneered this fitment several years ago. Kumho V710 R-compound tire in 315/35/18 on Forgestar F14 in 18x11" on 2013 GT, lowered 2.5" One of the more popular set-ups we sell lately is an 18x11" Forgestar for $350/each. It is light, it is very wide, it is the proper diameter (18" - just big enough to clear the 14" brakes, and nothing more) and it fits under the stock fender contours with nothing more than a little negative camber up front. These will not rotate front to back and have significantly different offsets on each axle. 305/650/18 Continental Slicks on a 11" forgestar F14 These 11" wide wheels will work well with a 285 to 315mm wide tire. One of the popular sizes to use with it is the 295/35/18, and another is a 315/35/18. Not a ton of choices in those two sizes, but there are some good ones. http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Projects...heel-teesting/ The gallery above shows some of the wheel and tire testing we've done on S197s. Dozens of different wheel brands and widths we have tested, including wheels we had custom built to fit these cars. That 18x10 ET43 came from us, on a run of wheels we made 100 of to get them out there, which everyone later copied. We've stepped up to a 18x12" wheel on both ends on our TT3 Time Trial Mustang, and flared the fronts for use with up to a 335mm tire. We usually still run on 315/30/18 Hoosier R6 or A6 tires, though, as they are much more common and easier to get. Plenty of grip. For a mostly street car I'd use a ~180-200 treadwear 275/40/18 on an 18x10" and be happy. Note: the 18x10 "drift" wheel is a cheap and super heavy wheel that is shunned from virtually all S197 racers. Absolute boat anchor wheels... but they are super cheap, so street guys flock to them. Not racers - way too heavy. Adding rotating inertia like this is extremely detrimental to competition use. Cheers,

Not planning on do competion just track days. Cant afford 4000 in rims and tires just doesnt seem worth it when I can spend 900 for tires and 600 on rims. Heavy yes but for occasional fun thats all that matters. I want the bfg rivels and contacted yall several times on em. Never got a response

[modernbeat]

Originally Posted by Rebelracer568 Not planning on do competion just track days. Cant afford 4000 in rims and tires just doesnt seem worth it when I can spend 900 for tires and 600 on rims. Heavy yes but for occasional fun thats all that matters. I want the bfg rivels and contacted yall several times on em. Never got a response

Hmmm, is your name Lagace? That's the only person that's contacted us regarding Rivals on a Mustang. And we sent that fellow a quote. If that's not you, try contacting us at [email protected].

The 18x10 D-Force are only $309 each. BFG Rival tires are moderately priced for the size at $290 for the 295/35/18 tires. Tirerack lists tires in that size from $236 to $432. That $2396 for damn good tires on lightweight wheels.

[Rebelracer568]

Sent email to that email on 8/30. Also been waiting on some replies from matt regarding brake duct quotes and my whiteline mount I ordered

[bird_dog0347]

Originally Posted by modernbeat Hmmm, is your name Lagace? That's the only person that's contacted us regarding Rivals on a Mustang. And we sent that fellow a quote. If that's not you, try contacting us at [email protected]. The 18x10 D-Force are only $309 each. BFG Rival tires are moderately priced for the size at $290 for the 295/35/18 tires. Tirerack lists tires in that size from $236 to $432. That $2396 for damn good tires on lightweight wheels.

Would you recommend using those on a daily driver? I'd like to do an autocross event or two but my car is a stock 2014 GT and is my daily driver. I plan to do some mild updates to the suspension but it'll never be my full blown "track car". I do have a 92 5.0 notchback that I'm installing an 04 Cobra IRS on and will be going full coilover as well with poly and derlin bushings and eventually I'll take that to auto-x and track days. I'm sure though given the suspension mods I've done I'll never be competitive in the class I'll be forced to run but so long as I improve every time out I don't really care about winning against guys with more money and less kids.

In the mean time, I'll be looking for different tires/wheels for the '14 and wouldn't mind some recomendations that A.) won't break the bank and B.) won't make me buy tires every 10k miles.

[modernbeat]

Depends on how "daily" and how many miles your daily driver is. Do you have to drive it to work when there is snow on the ground? If yes, then the Rivals are not the tires for you. If no, and you have a truck for those days when it's hailing or snowing, and you really want the best performance out of a street tire, then you are the target customer.

I've run a lot of tires like the Rival on daily driven commuters and usually gotten 20k or so miles out of them. For the average person, that is one year of driving. I drive the commuter less than that per year and usually change tires out at 20k not because they are worn down to the wear bars, but because they are no longer as sticky as I want. So a fresh sets goes on and I start abusing them.

Rebel Racer, I found your email caught in our spam filter and replied.

[El_Tortuga]

Well that ought to cover it.

Thanks Terry. She'll be wearing the stock rubber this weekend, but we'll be in touch

[chicane23]

I believe you guys have two different goals here.
I know Terry means well and his suggestion is great for a dedicated track setup.

Rebelracer568 is looking for a setup that not only he can drive to and from the track, but have a tire that he is use to since they do run the RA1's on a dedicated track car in American Iron.
Yes, there are better tires, yes we can get any tire he wants, but what is good for one customer is not always good for another or what they are looking for.

Now, for a dedicated track car, with track proven/race quality wheels we would suggest a Hoosier A6 or R6 depending on the exact situation and event.

I hope that helps.

[Fair]

Wait... I mean well? hehehe...

Trust me, I understand the difference in a track-only car and a dual-purpose car. Most of the many hundreds of customers a year we work with have the latter, not the former. Even a majority of our own shop's "race cars" for the past decade have been dual-purpose street/track or street/autocross cars. Why? Because that's what a majority of our customers have, and we race what they race. Even our TT3 Mustang is still a 100% emissions legal street car with A/C, NAV, and full interior. We slap street tires on it for daily driver use often. We also raced competitively in the Street Touring set of classes from 2004-2012 and have 2 Championships and many trophies to show for it. That is a street tire/emissions legal set of classes.



These (above and below) are just a few of the cars we have built and that I have raced in the past few years, which were all dual-purpose cars (street/track and/or street/autox) run with 140-200 treadwear street tires.



We also hold our own private test events once or twice a year, where we often test multiple sets of tires on the same car against the clock and datalogger, make set-up changes, and try differing driving techniques. And this always pays off with a faster competition car, better tire buying knowledge, and gains in set-up experience. We do these tests often, like this one in 2006, or this one in 2007, or this one in 2011, and that one in 2011 again, and this one in 2012.



And we do these tests to learn, test, and explore new opportunities to go faster. In our many private tests we have used hundreds of sets of tires - name a popular tire brand and we've probably used them in multiple generations. We have had contracts and/or free tires sent to us from Bridgestone, Yokohama, Kumho, and Hoosier, but for the most part we have bought the bulk of the tires we test and race with. Earlier this year I was invited to the BFG Rival launch and test event, where we got to race on BFG, Toyo, Hankook and Falken tires back to back with each other, on 4 different test venues and 4 different car chassis. Learned a lot there and we have put Rivals on several customer and our own cars since then.



Even our TT3 Mustang, which uses Kumho and Hoosier R-compounds at NASA Time Trial events (yet which is still street legal and often street driven), is still up for some use on street tires. The upcoming Goodguys event held at TWS on October 6th will be an Optima Qualifier event, so the treadwear minimum is 200. We'll be competing in that once again, and I want to win the autocross event there, just like we did last year.



While we do run through a lot of R-compound/race tires, we've never NOT also had a second or third car we were concurrently competing/street driving on street tires. This year I've raced in an STX prepped BRZ, STU prepped Mustang, and this upcoming Optima qualifier - all on street tires, in dual purpose street cars. My black 2013 GT (below) is on 200 treadwear tires and has a bone stock engine, yet runs 2:03s at Eagles Canyon, and is a 100% street car. That's faster than many of the cars on race tires we often see running out there.



So, when I talk about street tires and dual purpose cars, I'm not just regurgitating crap I read off the internet - it is from direct experience, with empirical test data and competition results to back it up. And yes, all flavors of Toyo tires suck donkey balls.

Anyway.... back to the heavy cheap wheel discussion, heh.

[El_Tortuga]

"N" Says novice right on the side of the car.



Sandbagger.







LOL. I'm going to assume that's for the owner or codriver.

[modernbeat]

Yep, that is for Matt, our Office manager and owner of that car. Terry ran it in "X" class.

[donutninja]

Hello, found this thread when doing a search for fitment and offsets.

I try to make it out to the AutoX events when I can and would like to do the occasional track day. I've been reading and searching all over for some "definitive" numbers and what I've come up with is...

You can push the outer rim of the rear out about +35mm-38mm and still be flush with the fender. Does this go the same for the front? I've noticed that Most wheel setups share the same front and rear offsets if the rims are the same width.

I noticed mention of an 18x10 +43ish fitting up front and in rear.

Now here is the main question, visually I like the look of a 19" wheel on these cars. is a 19x10 +43ish or 19x9.5 +35ish on all 4 corners that much of a difference over an 18" wheel with the same offsets and widths?

As much as I love autoX i also kind of want the show aspect and am trying to find a happy medium. I can't really afford to have 2 sets of wheels and tires but don't mind spending for a good best of both worlds set up. Tires are one thing you shouldn't really skimp on. haha

also, the stock wheels are 17x7 +40 I think (base V6 2013) and I love the turning radius on this car. would a 19x10 +43 265/35/19 fit ok on all four sides?

man, a ton of questions but the guys at Vorshlag seem to really know their stuff and I figured if you could answer them here for others to read it would be better than an email.

Thanks!!

[El_Tortuga]

Originally Posted by donutninja Hello, found this thread when doing a search for fitment and offsets. I try to make it out to the AutoX events when I can and would like to do the occasional track day. I've been reading and searching all over for some "definitive" numbers and what I've come up with is... You can push the outer rim of the rear out about +35mm-38mm and still be flush with the fender. Does this go the same for the front? I've noticed that Most wheel setups share the same front and rear offsets if the rims are the same width. I noticed mention of an 18x10 +43ish fitting up front and in rear. Now here is the main question, visually I like the look of a 19" wheel on these cars. is a 19x10 +43ish or 19x9.5 +35ish on all 4 corners that much of a difference over an 18" wheel with the same offsets and widths? As much as I love autoX i also kind of want the show aspect and am trying to find a happy medium. I can't really afford to have 2 sets of wheels and tires but don't mind spending for a good best of both worlds set up. Tires are one thing you shouldn't really skimp on. haha also, the stock wheels are 17x7 +40 I think (base V6 2013) and I love the turning radius on this car. would a 19x10 +43 265/35/19 fit ok on all four sides? man, a ton of questions but the guys at Vorshlag seem to really know their stuff and I figured if you could answer them here for others to read it would be better than an email. Thanks!!

I'd sure avoid the 19s for a competition tire. Not as many choices. I'm keeping my stock brembo 19s for street but ponied up for a set of 18s for autox and track, they are so much lighter and the car runs a touch lower too.

Check the rules. GT mustang moves from STX (265 max) to STU (285) next year so I bought tires for STU. STU PAX sucks, but its where I need to be while I'm in skill building mode.

[donutninja]

Yeah, my base V6 is in D Stock for now until I upgrade. I want to run a few more stock to continue to get the feel of the car since it's so much heavier and a bit more powerful than my last one. My stock tires are 17x7 with a 225/60/17 and feel soooo soft and wobbly, haha