Cobra Jet vs. Boss IM Comparisons
 

Saw this on the other forum and though people here would be interested. Here's the thread: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...-manifold.html

I would have liked to see this comparison in TX with some 93 octane. Man these cars leave a lot on the table in stock form. Impressive gains especially for the minimal amount of mods.

-Alex

No need for this info.

I usually take what I read off SVTPERFORMANCE with a grain of salt.

Track numbers do count more than power. But power does help you move around a track faster yes?

I say that about all forums. The meat and potatoes from that thread though(at least what I took from it) is that there IS a power AND torque advantage in the Cobra Jet intake manifold over the Boss 302 manifold. Say what you will regarding the other posts but, the dyno charts can't really be argued. Same day test, same mods on the same car. The CJIM clearly came out on top :)

-Alex

You can have 500 hp and still lose to a 400hp car. Track times say it all

No need for this info.

True. But this thread isn't about lap times, it's about the performance gains of a particular modification vs. similar part. Plain and simple.

It's a moot point really. You can dial in a car's system for a particular track and use the same setup and be less effective at another track. All things being equal, tires, LCAs, gearing, shocks, transmission, cage, harness etc, would you prefer to have more or less power than you have now?

-Alex

I never said anything about lap times. Im talking drag racing. More hp doesnt mean faster. Is hp nice? Yes absolutely. Is it necessary? No in racing tq is just as important as hp. Especially drag racing. Id take a car that makes 350hp with 400 tq over 400 hp with 350 tq any day.
for instance my low hp 66 stang will out run 450+hp cars because it has more tq. Better 60' equals faster et. So hp is not always important

Are you referring to just Mustangs or cars in general? Ferraris have incredible acceleration while having very high horsepower and very low amounts of torque. Same with NA Porsches. This has been true before launch control too.

Hell, a Boss 302 is faster than a normal GT and the GT has more torque but less power.

-Alex

No need for this info.

Are you comparing a boss with 3.73 gears to a normal gt with 3.31's. So yea boss will be faster with quicker acceleration. Torque is what gets you out of the hole on the track. Hp keeps you pulling. So back to your post yes hp is great but without torque your car will not 60' foot well, but pull hard with the high rpms.
Like wbt said dyno numbers dont always mean faster times.
I have several race cars and street cars. Only 2 ever seen dynos. 1 just cause we wanted to try it and 2nd I needed a dyno tune. The real dyno is in the track time

This. I refer to it as the short bus forum.

I take things like suspension/traction out of the picture and use the one mile dyno down at Beeville. I really don't get all the talk about this manifold lately, I already proved what the CJ manifold would do way back in March, the car ran 152.8 to the half, and 180.0 to the mile. For comparison purposes latemodelrestoration's 2013 with a 2.3 Whipple ran 147.6/180.0, a TVS blown 2013 GT ran 145.0/166.9, 4 2013 GT500s at 142.7/164.8, 150.9/166.1, 151.0/176.9, and 147.2/177.8, plus 8 more earlier GT500s behind me too.

Me...I run 10's every time out...

...then around the mid 12 second mark I finish the 1/4 ;-)

Guys, the mod made more power according to the dyno chart that was supplied by the poster on the other forum. Unless he was lying about what mods were done with each pull.

I never said or implied that a car with more power will definitely be faster. There's tons of things that have to do with speed around a track. I never argued that. How is this so off topic now?

-Alex

My question is they are saying there was a gain in midrange tq/hp over the boss. However, the stock Im already makes more mid tq/hp then Boss. So are they just getting that back and a little more on top?

Does it really matter if you lose or gain mid range power when you're racing you're above 6k rpms all the time?

If you read the whole thing shaun at aed says intake s are basically the same and believes the few extra hp come from the bigger throttle body and cai. I see this being true.the cobra jet tb is larger than our 80mm tb. Is it worth the money I personally dont think so. But drag racers want every little hp. I think its awesome intake but not worth the extra money

Very fair assessment. What size throttlebody is on the JC? I didn't notice. Guessing 120mm?

-Alex

Id like to see results with a blower.

Ya i'd be interested to see how the CJ manifold stacks up against stock IM numbers and where it picks up power. The Boss manifold has shown time and again to lose power down range of 6500 rpms and only pick back up and add some from 6500+. Looks like the CJ manifold does the same with picking up more power at a lower power band but I'm interested where it will start making more power over the stock IM and how long / how much will it make over stock. Comparing it to just the boss IM isn't a great / full comparison to what can be had performance wise with the CJ manifold.

With that said I wonder if TS's Ported Boss Manifold can go toe to toe with a CJ manifold.

Couldn't we just compare the dyno chart with someone's dyno here of there bolt on dyno with a stock GT manifold? Plenty of people here have the same basic mods as the guy with the CJM.

-Alex

Comparing 2 cars with similar mods isn't the best method. Using the same car, same day, same temps, same dyno, same atmospheric conditions would control the variations the best. I was just curious if TS essentially accomplished what the CJ IM did with a boss IM porting. Seems the CJ manifold and Boss manifold ported by TS find power sooner the same way.

this
Id bet gd money its identical to stock to boss swap with a lil more up top at a higher rpm. No thanks.:boobs:

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do.

You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows:

1-2 9000 RPM
2-3 8700 RPM
3-4 7700 RPM

Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again.


Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?

Jesus, he was say when your racing in the 1/4 or whatever that most of the time the car is above 6k rpm. Which is true. Look out we got a badass over here:yuno:. Most dyno's show minimal gains with a boss in fact almost all. For a daily its pretty damn hard to beat the stock coyote IM. The difference even in the 1/4 is even minimal. Before you say "on the dyno who cares" Show me a bolt on car that made a significantly faster pass with the boss vs the Oem.

I understand. People dont like forum. Heck there alot of bs on this forum. All I was stating is what I read on the link. No reason to get butt hurt over stating something. I dont believe half of stuff I read on forum cause most time people are full of it. Now I dont think there is a big difference between the to intakes. But its also a drag intake. Boss is designed for road racing. Hence BOSS intake. So the cobra jet intake will be better than boss for drag racing.

Yup I'm full of bullshit again. Fucking asshole maybe if you learn how to read correctly you might understand what I was saying.

I would agree with that if it were nothing more than a dedicated track car. I think most of us use them more as an all around street car. i like the twisty backroads as well as drag racing so the low to midrange matters to me. I personally dont think that a street car with no low/midrange is a lot of fun on the street. It really comes down to how the owner plans to use their car.

This...the AED koolaid drunk on this site is unreal. Typical SVTPERFORMANCE homers.

True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

:troll3:

For 1 most of use don't live at the track so we are looking for something easily tangible as a measure to go by if the investment in an expensive manifold is worth it or not.

2. Say all you want about dyno numbers yes, they don't equal a translation to track results but if you take a car already setup with a boss manifold rip that off on the same day with the same dyno in the same relative atmospheric conditions / temperatures and you see a consistent number difference with a new setup I think its pretty easy to say now you have some form of evidence to make a decision if it's worth it or not.

3. The Boss manifold has a consistent dyno proven history of the numbers falling hard under ~6500 rpms. That's been proven consistent on many comparisons on many dyno's on many cars. Obviously the results will vary but all are consistent with what to expect.

The guy on SVT Performance was essentially trying to show the comparison.

Unless your are making a serious amount of more power say like 30+ or more I think you can expect to see track results given you are a excellent consistent driver, which again most of us are not so its harder for us to use the track results as a medium for comparison.

Actually this forum is great compared to most.

I don't know how you have determined one is for road racing and the other is for drag racing when the runner length is identical, and the runner volume is nearly identical. Put CJ on a Boss302S/R and it will certainly lap quicker than it will with the Boss manifold. The Boss had some compromises made for factory assembly, it has plenty of firewall clearance so the assembly workers can install the engine from the bottom like every other Mustang. The CJ removes these compromises. It also removes the cost compromise of re-purposing the original GT throttle body.

I've owned the CJ manifold for 6 months, I had the Boss 302 engine before you could even buy a Boss 302 Mustang, I don't rely on someone else to do any of the work or even tuning, I have actual experience and real results, I'm not just making things up as I go based on what some wannabe tooner with a pack full of nutswingers on SVTP tells people. And BTW Shaun's power curves suck, look how they fall off above 6500. These cars can absolutely flatline from 6500 until the PCM quits, he's missing a bunch up top.
https://sphotos-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/h..._1519551_n.jpg

So with that being said. The only difference between the boss 302 intake and cj is the fact your have to run a gt500 tb and cai. So that giving you the extra hp. Im not knocking you or anything. More air and fuel and a different tune is hp difference between the two so yes the cj would be better on boss 302s. I was just saying the boss intake is designed for the boss mustang which is a road course car, and the cobra jet is designed for the drag car.
Its funny you say how his car falls after 6500. My car with boss intake makes peak hp at 6800rpms

I agree, you are 100% correct.

I understand your point to a degree. Yes a manifold will perform differently with the car not moving as opposed to being on a track with ambient air being forced to the induction system. However, a dyno, for the time being, is the best method of comparing the two parts.

Trying to compare that on a track is going to be unimaginably more difficult. I would say do this same dyno, then on the same day put the car with both intakes on an automatic(to reduce driver error) and see what happens.

+1! This guy understand the point of this thread.

-Alex

Haha, very true.

In my opinion, what an owner needs to do is sit back and think about the end goal of what they want from their car and how they will use it primarily. Everyone has a different idea what they want from their car from being a monster at the track, from a roll on the high way, autocross or just a fun all around street car. I think what a lot of owners seem to forget is that when you typically mod a car to be strong in one area you are giving something up in another. But as long as the owner is happy with it is what matters.

Myself, I'd like an all around strong performing street car that is fun as hell to drive. Strong power, good handling for my country backroad driving that I do love so much and some occasional drag racing/pull with friends. I know that focusing on the handling more I will have to sacrifice some of the launching ability of my car and I'm okay with that. My days of spending every weekend at the track chasing magical ET numbers are over for me. While it will never be the fastest track car here, it will certainly be very fun to drive. :)

:Pshyco:

-Alex

You're arguing against kdanner and wbt... And excuse my complete assholeness but its coming from you who completely shit talked about how fast your NA s197 is/would be. I'd bet as much as you want that kdanner or wbt stock would destroy you. So I take what they say or BruceH and learn from it.

I am using a stock GT500 TB which probably has less surface area than the stock 80mm unit. Shaun is just guessing.

IMO the gains over the Boss come from a more efficient upper plenum design specifically where it meets with the runners.

So how much HP did your car make on a dyno and what times did it run at the track on the same night I ran my car?



It already happened. See above. :)

We are sharing our experience with you guys and I think we have proven what works and what doesn't. Both of us have had 3+ years of experience at the track with these cars and spent a lot of time and money developing our combinations. We both have spent much longer than that doing this sport. We don't know everything and I have yet to meet anyone who does. It's a constant learning curve.

I understand what we do doesn't apply to everyone's needs and there are some who will disagree or want to argue. If some of you want to spend money on stuff that doesn't work that's fine. If some of you want to use dyno numbers as gospel that is fine. I think Jeff's car is a perfect example where it put down good numbers on a dyno but can't get down the track. He built the house before the foundation and now he is stuck trying to figure out how to put a foundation under it.

For those wondering about comparing results between the stock intake and Boss intake. Similar conditions, different days at the track, same mods minus the intake change.

Stock intake:


Boss intake:


Like I posted in the sticky, there are gains to be had using the Boss intake. It doesn't really make more peak HP vs. the stock intake however from ~6,800 to 7,700+ it makes the same power (unless you are using an AED tune). The advantage to this when drag racing is you are making peak power longer resulting in better times.

The CJ intake has a similar power curve as the Boss but is a more efficient design which results in more TQ/HP. Is it worth spending ~$1K for the needed parts vs. ~$450 for the Boss? As mentioned, it depends on your goals.

Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy. I want to have a fun car to drive and I have it. And I'm not arguing with anyone. I really haven't read shit what they've said in this post except for when he said I was full of bullshit about what I said which what I said is true. At the track who cares about midrange gains when you are at 6k or above the whole time you're racing.