PDA

View Full Version : question bout caster camber plates


toomnymods
11-15-2013, 06:10 AM
I've ordered a ton of stuff thru BMR today and He set me up with strange adjustable struts for the front and Gt500 strut upgrade to get the strange struts to work on my 2014. The question is do I still need caster camber plates? I'll be using the BMR springs on all 4 corners and the front only should have 1" of drop.
Lastly Which caster camber plates should I buy? ones for the 2011+ mustang or do i need the ones for the 2010 gt500 since those are the strut mounts i'll be using.. I'm so confused..

El_Tortuga
11-15-2013, 11:28 AM
I've ordered a ton of stuff thru BMR today and He set me up with strange adjustable struts for the front and Gt500 strut upgrade to get the strange struts to work on my 2014. The question is do I still need caster camber plates? I'll be using the BMR springs on all 4 corners and the front only should have 1" of drop.
Lastly Which caster camber plates should I buy? ones for the 2011+ mustang or do i need the ones for the 2010 gt500 since those are the strut mounts i'll be using.. I'm so confused..

Imwas in the confused mode a couple of months ago so don't feel bad.

The length of the necked down portion of the struts changed. For 2011+ it is shorter (1.5"). 2005-10 was 3". Accordingly, the mounts are different.

I believe the GT 500 mount is a little beefier and made for the 5-10 struts. Therefore, your strange struts are the early (longer) style?

Lowering your car 1" changes the camber. Mine ended up at about 1.2deg negative which I was comfortable with for daily duty. Yours may vary.

I also wanted more negative camber for autocross and track duty so I bought camber plates. I tried the vorschlag but they don't offer a spring perch that fits stock style springs right, and they fumbled the strut fit so I ended up running back and forth to their shop several times. For $500 plus, I didn't feel like a "beat the spring with a BFH to fit" was appropriate. Vorschlag took them back, and I ended up buying the Maximum Motorsports camber plates for $300. They fitted and worked as advertised. Their offering includes the spacer bushings to handle either length strut. The MM plates have slotted caster settings so you can adjust. With the Vorschlag plates you have two holes to choose one caster setting or the other and the more aggressive caster may limit your camber adjustment unless you carve on the strut towers (illegal in SCCA for most classes).

With the plates, it's pretty nice to be able to easily have the mild daily driver setup (-1 deg) camber and then shift to -2.5 for events when I change tires. Doing so also makes the toe more positive for track so it turns in just a little better. I also have added more caster for both duties. Works for me.

Cheers

El_Tortuga
11-15-2013, 11:34 AM
If you aren't going to do a bunch of handling events, you can also adjust the caber with the Ford "crash" bolts. They are eccentric bolts where you attach your struts to the spindles. To get the eccentric, they have to carve away metal so they aren't quite as strong.

DirtyD
11-15-2013, 11:35 AM
If you are getting GT500 mounts, you don't need caster/camber plates. If you need more camber adjustment than the 1° camber bolts allowed, you can turn your GT500 mounts to face the arrow on the top inside of the car, and that should help give you the room to set proper camber.

GT500 mounts are basically non-adjustable caster/camber plates

JDBishopArts
11-15-2013, 12:20 PM
If you have the money to do C/C plates get them. They are well worth the money and the right way to properly align a lowered car. I'm running camber bolts, which are sufficient but not ideal. Especially if you plan on doing any track time. After I did an autox day my alignment is off. The bolts are known to wiggle out of alignment sometimes.

I bought Vorshlag C/C plates and they are going on this weekend. They look amazing. If you get C/C plates you do not need GT500 mounts. They take the place of them.

Bottom line is you don't "need" C/C plates but C/C plates are 100x better than bolts.

JPC
11-17-2013, 02:34 PM
I have Vorshlag cc plates on my 2012 Boss 302
I love them. A quick track side adjustment and -3 degrees of camber for better corner
end of day 5 mins back to straight up for the street.

ping me for ride along, I live in Allen, TX

[email protected]

Fair
11-26-2013, 06:37 PM
I also wanted more negative camber for autocross and track duty so I bought camber plates. I tried the vorschlag but they don't offer a spring perch that fits stock style springs right, and they fumbled the strut fit so I ended up running back and forth to their shop several times. For $500 plus, I didn't feel like a "beat the spring with a BFH to fit" was appropriate. Vorschlag took them back, and I ended up buying the Maximum Motorsports camber plates for $300. They fitted and worked as advertised. Their offering includes the spacer bushings to handle either length strut. The MM plates have slotted caster settings so you can adjust. With the Vorschlag plates you have two holes to choose one caster setting or the other and the more aggressive caster may limit your camber adjustment unless you carve on the strut towers (illegal in SCCA for most classes).

Well, there are always two sides to every story, and your situation with us was more complicated than that. Here's my version... and like they say, somewhere between these two stories is the truth. :D

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Vorshlag-Camber-Plate-Product/i-HZLW2w6/0/L/23d_DSF2847%20copy-L.jpg

First, one of our order guys did put something together wrong on his camber plate order, which I apologized for and still regret. Vorshlag camber plates, unlike virtually every other company on the planet that makes a "spherical strut top mount with camber adjustment", are made to only be sold with a new upper spring perch. Our modular design takes into account several measurements on the "strut stem" (that can be and ARE often different between strut brands), such as the various diameters, lengths, shoulder styles and thread pitches (and thread lengths). Then we make a variety of OEM and coilover style upper spring perches with an integral, sealed radial bearing (with single and double row bearings available). All told we can make an "S197 Mustang" camber plate in 150 ways, so it is easy to miss one piece of the puzzle and have it not fit correctly. On "El_Tortuga" here we made that one mistake...

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Tyler-Rogers-2012-Mustang-GT/i-NmGnjVS/1/M/_DSC8484-M.jpg

He then came up to our shop to have us correct it - luckily he was somewhat local and we could fix it on the spot, which we did in a manner of minutes. And when we sold him this set-up he told us he was doing performance suspension work (autocross), so we sold him one of two spring perches we use for OEM style springs on the S197. Here's a hint - making these is NOT easy, and between the various automakers we have a dozen different diameters, styles, shapes and heights of "OEM" perches to fit various makes and models. The one we sold El_Tortuga fits tighter on the spring (shown above, no rubber isolator), and everyone we've sold it to understood that it takes a bit of force to get the spring to fit over the diameter. The other version we make is smaller and works with the stock rubber spring isolator (shown below), which we use for more street oriented set-ups.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-fMbvdmP/0/M/DSC_0963-M.jpg

This comes from the fact that we use OEM two different perches from BMW because the Ford perch isn't modifiable to work with our design. The two BMW perches are slightly smaller and slightly bigger than the Ford perch, though. Its.... complicated (more below). When El_Tortuga got home he was not comfortable forcing the perch over the ID of the spring (the spring doesn't care and it doesn't hurt anything or affect the performance). We tried to explain how to do it, and that there was another solution that used the rubber isolator, but he was so "fed up and furious" with making two trips to our shop that I gave him a 100% refund, on the spot. We were never going to make him happy at that point, and even with a full refund he is still ticked off... sorry. Can't be fixed at this point so I might as well correct his version of the events. :emotions36:

Also, there are a LOT of manufacturers of aftermarket lowering springs and we have seen some tighter than others. Just wanted to add that, too.

Please, all I ask is that everyone else reading this doesn't confuse this one person's lack of patience with the installation (granted, we screwed up the initial order, which I chewed some ass here about) something that could be construed as a "bad design". Our design is admittedly more complicated to correctly order than others, but we do have two OEM spring perch solutions - one for street guys and one for more competition oriented uses, and we thought we sold him what he needed, but didn't get a chance to get him what he wanted.

Sure, we could make a custom CNC machined billet aluminum OEM style perch that fit the S197 spring perfectly, and that took our radial bearing and strut adapter bushing, but it would add even more to the cost of this already pricy OEM set-up.

The Maximum plates are very different in many ways, and they work differently (no upper perch, radial bearing, etc.) than ours. I can't sell a camber plate like everyone else does, the "one size fits all" widget that you just slap on top of the stock spring perch, because I know what makes our design work so well and last so long - the upper spring perches sealed radial bearing. We've been making camber plates for 11 years and after tens of thousands sold we know we make the best, most reliable, longest lasting design, and why. Nobody else includes a new upper spring perch with an integral sealed double row radial bearing like Vorshlag (no "c") because it is MORE EXPENSIVE TO MAKE and more complicated to configure correctly.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Vorshlag-Camber-Plate-Product/i-8pZjzHp/0/S/DSC2590-S.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Vorshlag-Camber-Plate-Product/i-dsMdWdb/0/S/DSC2584-S.jpg

We did make a CNC aluminum upper perch this for the BMW 1M OEM spring fitment (see above and here (http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_79_170&products_id=535)) and that is a $529 camber plate set-up, due to the added billet aluminum perch costs. That car originally used a flat style OEM upper perch, but the helical style perch on the Ford would be even more costly to make as a custom billet unit... and nobody wants to pay for a $600 camber plate. So far, our S197 camber plate with the "2 OEM style" upper perch solution we have works, and we've had exactly one set returned for dissatisfaction.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Vorshlag-Camber-Plate-Product/i-Hh29wbJ/0/L/DSC0633-L.jpg

Lastly there are actually 3 fixed caster settings on our camber plates (it only looks like 2 if you don't understand what you are looking at). The stock setting (dead center of strut tower opening), then two settings that each add +0.5 deg of caster. We could have made a "sliding" adjuster for the caster, like our camber adjuster on the S197 design, but didn't. Why? Two reasons: one, it would have made the camber plate thicker, which eats up bump travel. Nobody else seems to care about the stack-up height of the camber plate as we do, and we go to great lengths to minimize that measurement. Two, after talking to alignment techs they told us that aligning a car with a sliding caster adjustment (which a lot of designs do) is a huge pain in the ass. Honestly, caster isn't something you "fine tune" with at the track for improved handling, unlike camber, toe, and tire pressure.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Projects/Vorshlag-2011-Mustang-GT-build/i-58xmhjf/0/L/DSC_8842-L.jpg
Our TT3 Mustang has an unmolested strut tower opening and can get close to -4 degrees of camber

With our 3 caster settings either you get the stock caster (+6 degrees, which in my mind is PLENTY) or bit more or a LOT more caster. And any extra caster you add on this chassis is going to cost you negative camber adjustment, due to the VERY small hole in the strut tower. We make the added caster and camber adjustment range in there for racers that are allowed to notch the chassis, but 95% of the folks use the stock (middle) caster setting and maximize the inboard camber travel, leaving the strut towers untouched. There is an example of a modified strut tower opening shown below. The Boss 302-S chassis is also notched for added caster.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-Events/Test-Day-ECR-071313/i-3mj3z7n/0/L/DSC_9181-L.jpg
Modified strut tower opening for max caster/camber travel with Vorshlag cc plates

Anyway, that's how I remember it. :happy107:

Cheers,

JDMLOL
11-27-2013, 12:11 AM
I have a related questions. I'm about to start shopping for cc plates. I currently have 05-10 str.t's with gt500 mounts. Will I have to break down my gt500 mounts and reuse the perch for the new cc plates? Will the mm plates for 11-14 work on mine or do I need 05-10? How does that work? it looks like the install for 11-14 plates requires reusing the oem perch/bearing of the old mounts (which broke instantly when I removed my oem front suspension), which I threw away.

modernbeat
11-27-2013, 12:21 PM
With Vorshlag plates you do not need to reuse your old top mounts. With the "slip fit" version you can reuse the rubber isolator if you want.

El_Tortuga
11-27-2013, 05:04 PM
Terry,

What did you need to "correct"? How many times I ended up going to your shop? The correct answer is 5.

Not sure how the issue is a "lack of patience" on my part. I threw in the towel after:
1) waiting 2 wks to get the plates
2) they didn't fit the struts
3) the spring perches were about 3/8" bigger than the stockers (the calipers don't lie). After being burned on the strut fit, it was "oh no, here we go again".

I went to your website and the "instructions" (some of the pictures are annotated) don't show the interference, no mention of using a BFH, nor was this ever indicated to me in our discussions and emails. At that point it was painfully clear to me that I did not have the parts shown in the pics. I tried calling, but nobody answered the phone on a Sat AM. I even pulled the stock springs out of the attic to see if it was an Eibach issue, but the stockers had identical IDs and pigtail. I did try moderate strikes with the dead blow hammer, and wasn't making any headway, so I put the Konis on with the stock plates.

At that point, it was definitely best to part ways even after I got the rest of the story Monday. I don't have any issue with the explanation, but it sure would have saved a bunch of frustration.

After researching my options,I ordered the MM plates a day later. They arrived later in the week, had a good set of instructions, worked as advertised, and the rest is history. By midday the next Saturday I was on a test drive. I'm happy with the MM plates, its pretty great to be able to dial in more camber for "events" and dial it back for daily duty.

Some consumer feedback:
1) If you have to build up "per order", please stock the needed parts. I hated being drug into the mess of your machine shop/plater deliveries. Definitely irritating when the Konis I ordered after your stuff sat in my garage for 2 events.
2) A proper set of instructions, or at least communication of the fitment issue. Certainly conflicting pictures is a recipe for unhappiness.
3) A "beat to fit" solution doesn't align well with a premium price (I got the MM plates delivered to my door for $230 less). A way to reuse the stock perches, a simple stepped cylinder with the GT500 offset isolators, etc.

I genuinely hope for your success, but my dime is now biased away. Your narratives and pictures are entertaining and informative. Good luck.

Joe