Z/28

[Dominic Toretto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX6Bsp3hgEU

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

Wow, this car ran a 7:37:470 at the Ring!

-Alex

[03MachMe]

Its def a fast car. But it better be for more than the price of a GT500 with no A/C or Radio...

[Dominic Toretto]

Its def a fast car. But it better be for more than the price of a GT500 with no A/C or Radio...

Why do people get hung up on the A/C and radio thing for a track oriented car? The car clearly isn't meant to be a daily driver luxury car. Most hardcore racers remove those items anyway if the car has it.

-Alex

[GunsUp]

Its def a fast car. But it better be for more than the price of a GT500 with no A/C or Radio...

Because Racecar:winner_first_h4h:

[Dominic Toretto]

This is going to upset all of the Ford elitests but, just sayin...

40. Camaro Z/28 7:37.47 162 '13 507 / 1702
53. Ford GT 7:40.60 161 '04 550 / 1538

-Alex

[03MachMe]

This is going to upset all of the Ford elitests but, just sayin...

40. Camaro Z/28 7:37.47 162 '13 507 / 1702
53. Ford GT 7:40.60 161 '04 550 / 1538

-Alex

Tech in 2013> Tech in 2004

I understand why it doesnt have radio or A/C but people compare it to the Boss and its not even in the same catigory. A Boss, even the LS, is a track capable street car. the new Z/28 is a track car that you can get to pass inspection to drive on the street. still cant outrun that ugly, dont matter how fast it is

[Dominic Toretto]

still cant outrun that ugly, dont matter how fast it is

True. I'm still not sold on the look. It kinda looks bloated to me. I was hoping the new changes would make it more trim, like what Ford did with the Mustang in 2010 as opposed to the blocky-looking style.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

I got a feeling that the new stangs are gonna be pretty quick around a track. Hell, if they can make a Live rear axle car handle what can they do with IRS and 600 less lbs?

[garner]

Why do people get hung up on the A/C and radio thing for a track oriented car? The car clearly isn't meant to be a daily driver luxury car. Most hardcore racers remove those items anyway if the car has it.

-Alex

Probably cause the cost. Yeah you gotta pay to play but I think no ac and radio standard would go over better if it was between the ss and zl1 price wise

[Dominic Toretto]

people compare it to the Boss and its not even in the same catigory.

Not in the same category? I guess that depends on what personal category you come up with for each car. I see both as limited production, purpose built track pony cars, so they are absolutely in that same category.

Both have:

Limited production numbers
Track oriented engines
Naturally aspirated, high revving engines
Track tuned suspension
Better brakes that their more streetable counterparts
Weight savings
Upgraded aero
Cost more

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv8I-gqc6sc&feature=youtube_gdata

-Alex

[03MachMe]

Not in the same category? I guess that depends on what personal category you come up with for each car. I see both as limited production, purpose built track pony cars, so they are absolutely in that same category.

Both have:

Limited production numbers
Track oriented engines
Naturally aspirated, high revving engines
Track tuned suspension
Better brakes that their more streetable counterparts
Weight savings
Upgraded aero
Cost more

-Alex

like I said the boss is a street car that is capible at the track, IE has a radio, a/c, sync, etc. The Z28 is a track car, no creature comforts, that passes inspection so you can also drive on the street. The Boss is very easily a daily driver car where as unless you live in a perfect climate and dont listen to radio, the z/28 would be a horrible daily driver. PLUS its about $25k more than the boss.....

[Dominic Toretto]

like I said the boss is a street car that is capible at the track, IE has a radio, a/c, sync, etc. The Z28 is a track car, no creature comforts, that passes inspection so you can also drive on the street. The Boss is very easily a daily driver car where as unless you live in a perfect climate and dont listen to radio, the z/28 would be a horrible daily driver. PLUS its about $25k more than the boss.....

Price has nothing to do with how streetable (or trackable for that matter) a car may or may not be, so that factor is is more or less dependent on how much your income is and your budget.

Besides, it's not like you can't add AC and a radio when buying a Z/28, so really that point doesn't really seem feasible. If Chevy was saying "No we will not for any reason install AC or a radio", then I could see your argument legitimately. But since both cars can be bought with AC and a radio, kind of a wash.

Here's a USED 2012 Boss 302 LS for $47,000.
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=75038&endYear=2013&engineCode=8CLDR&transmissionCode=MAN&maxPrice=50000&transmissionCodes=MAN&mmt=%5BFORD%5BMUST%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&modelCode1=MUST&showcaseOwnerId=69929&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2012&engineCodes=8CLDR&firstRecord=26&searchRadius=0&minPrice=40000&listingId=347813004&listingIndex=9&Log=0

-Alex

[03MachMe]

Price has nothing to do with how streetable (or trackable for that matter) a car may or may not be, so that factor is is more or less dependent on how much your income is and your budget.

Besides, it's not like you can't add AC and a radio when buying a Z/28, so really that point doesn't really seem feasible. If Chevy was saying "No we will not for any reason install AC or a radio", then I could see your argument legitimately. But since both cars can be bought with AC and a radio, kind of a wash.

Here's a USED 2012 Boss 302 LS for $47,000.
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=75038&endYear=2013&engineCode=8CLDR&transmissionCode=MAN&maxPrice=50000&transmissionCodes=MAN&mmt=%5BFORD%5BMUST%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&modelCode1=MUST&showcaseOwnerId=69929&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2012&engineCodes=8CLDR&firstRecord=26&searchRadius=0&minPrice=40000&listingId=347813004&listingIndex=9&Log=0

-Alex

and Gary bought his used 2012 Boss LS for $40,000.... not sure what your point is? I'm still not sure what you are trying to argue here. We all agree that the z/28 is a fast car but once again it is 25k more expensive than a Boss was brand new so I would expect it to be faster.

[Dominic Toretto]

and Gary bought his used 2012 Boss LS for $40,000.... not sure what your point is? I'm still not sure what you are trying to argue here. We all agree that the z/28 is a fast car but once again it is 25k more expensive than a Boss was brand new so I would expect it to be faster.

My point is that both cars are in the same category. Your arguments that they are not are because A) no AC or radio and B) price. As stated, I don't see that being valid when you can get a Z/28 with both AC and a radio to make the car as comfortable as a Boss 302 and people have paid upwards of $50k for the Boss 302. So that makes both cars equal performers in price and comfort.

-Alex

[saunupe1911]

listen...it took GM 3 yrs to play ball with with the Boss and the GT500 was king off the muscle cars for 4 yrs. Bottom line, this generation is over. Better cars are less than 3 yrs away and the Z/28 cant even be bought until March 2014!!!!!!! I take my hats off to GM for even building the car but its purely for bragging rights since the cars isnt SCCA or Grand AM compatible. Also this car is Not in the same category as the Boss due to the lack of sound deadening and thin glass. This car is closer to a Boss S than LS. Last, GM thinks this car is an engineering marvel. Its nothing but a street legal Camaro GS.R which has been around for yrs! check the specs!

[Dominic Toretto]

listen...it took GM 3 yrs to play ball with with the Boss and the GT500 was king off the muscle cars for 4 yrs. Bottom line, this generation is over. Better cars are less than 3 yrs away and the Z/28 cant even be bought until March 2014!!!!!!! I take my hats off to GM for even building the car but its purely for bragging rights since the cars isnt SCCA or Grand AM compatible. Also this car is Not in the same category as the Boss due to the lack of sound deadening and thin glass. This car is closer to a Boss S than LS. Last, GM thinks this car is an engineering marvel. Its nothing but a street legal Camaro GS.R which has been around for yrs! check the specs!

I respected your post up until this Also this car is Not in the same category as the Boss due to the lack of sound deadening and thin glass.

Okay, so we've gone from "it's not in the same class because no AC or radio" when you can buy a Z/28 with both, to now it's not in the same class because of thin glass or sound deadening? Are you serious? No one in the Corvette community or any other forum I've been on has ever made this many excuses. C5Zs had thinner glass for windshields when comparing them to Porsche turbos, Ferrari 360s etc. No one in those forums complains about pricing either. If the car performs, it performs.

What's the next excuse? Oh, GM uses a different paint code, so it's not in the same category? Disregard all of the blatant similarities and the fact that both cars are built for the track, if the car doesn't give you a BJ then it's not in the same category.

-Alex

[03MachMe]

how does price not make them in different categories? Some have paid as much as $50k for a boss and that is still $20k less than a z28, huge price difference. So I guess we should start comparing the z28 to cars like the 2010 ACR Viper which is a lot faster than the z28 and you can get one for around $80k. While we are at it heck lets compare the mustang with a Ferrari and talk about why the Ferrari is better. Price absolutely makes a difference and when a price difference is $25k on the sticker prices then yea I say different class.

[Stangmaster281]

I'm getting deja' vu from this thread.

[re-rx7]

Ive always considered Porsche the best drivers car. That being said the Z28 is impressive but at the sametime I have to wonder if Ford can do that much with a LRA (boss, LS) what are they gna do with a IRS? It should be impressive to say the least. The fact the Z28 is being compared to a car with a LRA is pretty funny.

[Dominic Toretto]

how does price not make them in different categories? Some have paid as much as $50k for a boss and that is still $20k less than a z28, huge price difference.

Post a link showing a window sticker of a Z/28 please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc-T--DI0qQ

Go to 8:55. He says it will go for "north of $56k", I don't assume that means $80,000.00. Where are you you seeing window stickers for $80k Z/28s?

So I guess we should start comparing the z28 to cars like the 2010 ACR Viper which is a lot faster than the z28 and you can get one for around $80k. While we are at it heck lets compare the mustang with a Ferrari and talk about why the Ferrari is better. Price absolutely makes a difference and when a price difference is $25k on the sticker prices then yea I say different class.

You know a Viper and a Camaro are different cars completely. A Viper is a two-seat sports car. Let's keep on track comparing pony cars to pony cars :).

Listen to what the chief engineer says at 2:45.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc-T--DI0qQ
I'll just go ahead and type it. "Up level stereo is not standard." Now I don't know what that means to you but, that to me, means that it does come with a stereo, just not the higher output one. So, toss the stereo argument out the door.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Post a link showing a window sticker of a Z/28 please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc-T--DI0qQ

Go to 8:55. He says it will go for "north of $56k", I don't assume that means $80,000.00. Where are you you seeing window stickers for $80k Z/28s?

-Alex

Dealer mark up. You can count on that, maybe not 80 but i can see 65k to 70k.

[Dominic Toretto]

Dealer mark up. You can count on that, maybe not 80 but i can see 65k to 70k.

Oh I am certain there will be dealer markup. But is it fair to say that because some Boss 302s were selling for $60k, that all of them are $60k cars due to dealer markup?

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

Ive always considered Porsche the best drivers car. That being said the Z28 is impressive but at the sametime I have to wonder if Ford can do that much with a LRA (boss, LS) what are they gna do with a IRS? It should be impressive to say the least. The fact the Z28 is being compared to a car with a LRA is pretty funny.

Ford has done some magic with the LRA even on the non LS cars. Also it is funny that GMs pony car will be slaughtering many higher end cars on a track that the Germans own.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Oh I am certain there will be dealer markup. But is it fair to say that because some Boss 302s were selling for $60k, that all of them are $60k cars due to dealer markup?

-Alex

Id pretty much say that. They only built 2k. Unless you know where you could find one new for less?

Ford has done some magic with the LRA even on the non LS cars. Also it is funny that GMs pony car will be slaughtering many higher end cars on a track that the Germans own.

-Alex
Gm is not my fav company. Not because of the cars but its because they owe the Tax payers a shit ton of money. They keep building these niche cars they need to be selling volume. There new truck is behind the Fseries still and its brand new!

[Dominic Toretto]

Id pretty much say that. They only built 2k. Unless you know where you could find one new for less?

Dealer markup doesn't represent the price of the car. The MSRP is the actual vehicle price. Factoring dealer markup as the car's price is just like including the cost of an extended warranty or GAP.


Gm is not my fav company.

We all knew that. And that is perfectly fine. I don't have a favorite manufacturer, there are just cars that I do and don't like across the board. Some are built by Ford, some from GM, some from Toyota.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Dealer markup doesn't represent the price of the car. The MSRP is the actual vehicle price. Factoring dealer markup as the car's price is just like including the cost of an extended warranty or GAP.




We all knew that. And that is perfectly fine. I don't have a favorite manufacturer, there are just cars that I do and don't like across the board. Some are built by Ford, some from GM, some from Toyota.

-Alex

I stated the reason I dont. They build some fast cars but thats my only gripe. As far as the sticker goes for dealer markup you cant remove it like gap or a warranty. They car will sell for that or it will sit because they jknow someone will pay that.

[Dominic Toretto]

As far as the sticker goes for dealer markup you cant remove it like gap or a warranty. They car will sell for that or it will sit because they jknow someone will pay that.

The dealer will remove it when/if a car doesn't sell. For those that order cars, you don't go on the manufacturer's website and choose to add in a dealer markup. You choose the car, options, and bam, there's your price. You just go to the dealership and pick it up. But I do get your point about GAP and an extended warranty. So let's say, state taxes and registration. You can't avoid those, but those items don't represent the actual price of the car.

If you go to a dealership and ask "How much is this car?" they will refer you to the sticker and then say "but we are selling it for this amount.

Price($56,000) + markup($4,000) doesn't equal price. It just means you paid $60,000 for a $56,000 car. The price and what you pay for the car are not the same thing.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

The dealer will remove it when/if a car doesn't sell. For those that order cars, you don't go on the manufacturer's website and choose to add in a dealer markup. You choose the car, options, and bam, there's your price. You just go to the dealership and pick it up. But I do get your point about GAP and an extended warranty. So let's say, state taxes and registration. You can't avoid those, but those items don't represent the actual price of the car.

If you go to a dealership and ask "How much is this car?" they will refer you to the sticker and then say "but we are selling it for this amount.

Price($56,000) + markup($4,000) doesn't equal price. It just means you paid $60,000 for a $56,000 car. The price and what you pay for the car are not the same thing.

-Alex

Im not saying it is. Im saying thats what your going to pay, unless you find a dealer that is willing to sell it to you at cost. Shelby's are going through the samething.

[Dominic Toretto]

Im not saying it is. Im saying thats what you going pay topay unless you find a dealer that is willing to sell it to you at cost. Shelby's are going through the samething.

Exactly, we are on the same page :).

My point was never, what someone chooses to pay for it. It was always, the actual price of the car, which was the debate.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Exactly, we are on the same page :).

My point was never, what someone chooses to pay for it. It was always, the actual price of the car, which was the debate.

-Alex

I probally should of said MSRP instead of cost. ehhhh:Boo:

[Dominic Toretto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VlFXABzyc

No back seat, reduced interior comfort like the Z/28 i.e. track car.
Basic radio (just like Z/28).
Comes with a special key that adjusts engine parameters for the track i.e. track car.

So I guess in one perspective the Z/28 is more of a daily driver car since it has a back-seat.

[re-rx7]

Only 1000 laguna were ever produced. Its just funny to me that they compare it to a LRA car. Lol

[Dominic Toretto]

Only 1000 laguna were ever produced. Its just funny to me that they compare it to a LRA car. Lol

Camaros and Mustangs have been direct competitors for decades.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Im waiting for the new stangs to cone out. Its gna be 600lbs lighter. Weight is everything.

[Dominic Toretto]

From Chevrolet.com

"
SACRIFICE ALL IN THE NAME OF PERFORMANCE.


The legendary Camaro Z/28 is back for the 2014 model year. Originally introduced in 1967, Camaro Z/28 was designed specifically to compete in the Sports Car Club of America's Trans-Am 2 class. Lightweight, nimble and incredibly powerful, the original Z/28 was designed ideally for road racing. The 2014 Z/28 carries the same racing credentials, running a lap around the Nürburgring track with an impressive 7:37.40 time in inclement weather.

POWERTRAIN


A hand-assembled LS7 engine powers the Camaro Z/28, boasting an incredible 505 horsepower and 481 lb.-ft. of torque, making it the most powerful normally aspirated regular production small block V8 ever. The highest-quality parts and precision assembly elevate the redline level to 7000 rpm.


Durable, lightweight components such as titanium intake valves and connecting rods coupled with a forged-steel crankshaft make the LS7 engine incredibly robust. The standard 10.5-quart, dry-sump oil system distributes pressurized oil from an external reservoir to protect vital components under high-g driving conditions.

The LS7 is mated to a TREMEC® TR6060 6-speed manual gearbox that features close-ratio gearing - optimized for the engine’s power characteristics. The TREMEC is coupled with a 5.1:1-ratio short-throw shifter to ensure quick and precise shifts

Power is distributed to the rear wheels via a limited-slip differential, which features a helical gear set rather than traditional clutch packs that continuously adjusts torque bias allowing drivers to confidently lay down more power to get through corners faster. Coupled with the Performance Traction Management (PTM) system, drivers can adjust the level of throttle and brake intervention to match their capability and driving environment, essentially making PTM custom to each driving situation.

Z/28 features a cooling system designed for the track — standard. This incorporates the dry-sump oil system of the LS7, which connects to an integral liquid-to-liquid cooling system for engine oil. Another liquid-to-liquid system provides cooling for the transmission and differential.

BODY


The 2014 Camaro Z/28 pays homage to the exterior of the original legend while capitalizing on 21st century design elements and technology. Z/28 was born to be a functional instrument for the track, utilizing best practices and influences learned through racing.

Camaro Z/28 has aerodynamic treatments designed to produce downforce — specifically at track speeds. A large splitter connects to an underbody panel to further reduce lift. Fender flares over the front and rear wheels and extended rocker panels contribute to aerodynamic stability. Z/28 also features an aggressive rear spoiler and functional diffuser to complete the fully integrated aerodynamic package.

CHASSIS


The tires on Camaro Z/28 are robust and massive Pirelli® PZERO™ Trofeo R† 305/30ZR19 summer-only tires† — ideal for lateral motions, like corner entry and exit.

Camaro Z/28 features lightweight Brembo® carbon Ceramic Matrix™ rotors and fixed, monoblock calipers. The huge 394 x 36 mm front rotors are paired with 6-piston calipers, while the 390 x 32 mm rear rotors are paired with 4-piston calipers. Compared to similar-size two-piece steel rotors, the lightweight and large carbon calipers save 22 pounds, while encouraging impressive stopping power and heat toleration — ideal for track use.

Camaro Z/28 is one of the first production cars to feature race-proven spool-valve dampers. The spool-valve damper allows 4-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range dramatically increases the damper stiffness on Camaro Z/28 without significantly impacting ride quality.

INTERIOR


The all-new driver and front passenger racing seats are designed by RECARO®. Aggressive bolsters ensure both passenger and driver remain firmly planted, even in high-energy driving situations. A flat-bottom steering wheel opens leg room for entry and exit, as well as quicker heel/toe shifting. A short-throw shifter allow for rapid, confident shifting."

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Cant wait for that new all motor shelby. Then ford will own that as well lol.

[saunupe1911]

I respected your post up until this

Okay, so we've gone from "it's not in the same class because no AC or radio" when you can buy a Z/28 with both, to now it's not in the same class because of thin glass or sound deadening? Are you serious? No one in the Corvette community or any other forum I've been on has ever made this many excuses. C5Zs had thinner glass for windshields when comparing them to Porsche turbos, Ferrari 360s etc. No one in those forums complains about pricing either. If the car performs, it performs.

What's the next excuse? Oh, GM uses a different paint code, so it's not in the same category? Disregard all of the blatant similarities and the fact that both cars are built for the track, if the car doesn't give you a BJ then it's not in the same category.



-Alex

The Boss LS is street car that can be raced on the track. The Z/28 is track car that can be licensed on the street. They are truly 2 different classes of car. That's just my opinion.

So now lets look at some factual stuff rather than a bunch of opinions. Grab a Boss 302 S (or BOSS 302 R) and put it side by side with the Z/28. They have the same options. See for yourself. The only difference is a roll cage. Again, the Z/28 is nothing but a street legal GS.R with optional AC and a little bit of interior. So I'm impressed by the official lap times of the Z/28, but I'm also not surprised since I see this caliber of car race on Fox Sports once a month.

And again this generation is over! No one is going to challenge GM and this car simply because they have moved on. GM better start working on that Alpha platform rather than building special edition track cars at the end of it's generation.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/competition/bosscompare.asp

Bottom line, the car is a beast but I'm not impressed because I've already seen what a stripped down version of the car could do. That's my spill on this subject. I'm moving on because December is real close!!!!

[re-rx7]

The Boss LS is street car that can be raced on the track. The Z/28 is track car that can be licensed on the street. They are truly 2 different classes of car. That's just my opinion.

So now lets look at some factual stuff rather than a bunch of opinions. Grab a Boss 302 S (or BOSS 302 R) and put it side by side with the Z/28. They have the same options. See for yourself. The only difference is a roll cage. Again, the Z/28 is nothing but a street legal GS.R with optional AC and a little bit of interior. So I'm impressed by the official lap times of the Z/28, but I'm also not surprised since I see this caliber of car race on Fox Sports once a month.

And again this generation is over! No one is going to challenge GM and this car simply because they have moved on. GM better start working on that Alpha platform rather than building special edition track cars at the end of it's generation.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/competition/bosscompare.asp

Bottom line, the car is a beast but I'm not impressed because I've already seen what a stripped down version of the car could do. That's my spill on this subject. I'm moving on because December is real close!!!!

Good post. I believe the new mustang is gonna be a force to be reckoned with.

[Dominic Toretto]

The Boss LS is street car that can be raced on the track. The Z/28 is track car that can be licensed on the street. They are truly 2 different classes of car. That's just my opinion.

So now lets look at some factual stuff rather than a bunch of opinions. Grab a Boss 302 S (or BOSS 302 R) and put it side by side with the Z/28. They have the same options. See for yourself. The only difference is a roll cage. Again, the Z/28 is nothing but a street legal GS.R with optional AC and a little bit of interior. So I'm impressed by the official lap times of the Z/28, but I'm also not surprised since I see this caliber of car race on Fox Sports once a month.

And again this generation is over! No one is going to challenge GM and this car simply because they have moved on. GM better start working on that Alpha platform rather than building special edition track cars at the end of it's generation.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/competition/bosscompare.asp

Bottom line, the car is a beast but I'm not impressed because I've already seen what a stripped down version of the car could do. That's my spill on this subject. I'm moving on because December is real close!!!!

Track cars, don't meet the same safety standards as street cars.
Track cars can't be registered to be driven on the street.

The GS.R you are referring to, does it have the same amount of air bags, if any as the Z/28? Does it meet the same crash testing standards as the Z/28?

-Alex

[re-rx7]

So basically what your saying is that the Z28 is the baddest street car in its price range? Im gna ask you this....How many people actually take their cars to the track. Not just people you know personally but in general. Very very few. Track Fees are alot more then Drag strip fees. Its nice to know it can circle the track in German in so many par secs but at the end of the day most people that buy these will use them on the street. If you run across a your buddy who just bought a new shelby for the same money your not gna say " follow me to the track".

[DirtyD]

Fact of the matter is that GM beat a car with "outdated" technology, wider and track appropriate tires, and more power. Yay?

The SRA Boss LS ran all of it's times on streetable "R"-ish compound tires in a 255/285 setup.

[Dominic Toretto]

So basically what your saying is that the Z28 is the baddest street car in its price range? Im gna ask you this....How many people actually take their cars to the track. Not just people you know personally but in general. Very very few. Track Fees are alot more then Drag strip fees. Its nice to know it can circle the track in German in so many par secs but at the end of the day most people that buy these will use them on the street. If you run across a your buddy who just bought a new shelby for the same money your not gna say " follow me to the track".

I never claimed the Z/28 was the baddest car ever. I just posted this thread for people interested in the car. That was it. I'm a car enthusiast and like several types of cars, not just Fords. Plenty of people measure performance based on track times. If the Mustang went around a track faster than a Camaro, how many people here would have bashed the car?

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

Fact of the matter is that GM beat a car with "outdated" technology, wider and track appropriate tires, and more power. Yay?

The SRA Boss LS ran all of it's times on streetable "R"-ish compound tires in a 255/285 setup.

Were you expecting them to beat the car using less power, technology from the 90s and winter tires?

-Alex

[re-rx7]

I never claimed the Z/28 was the baddest car ever. I just posted this thread for people interested in the car. That was it. I'm a car enthusiast and like several types of cars, not just Fords. Plenty of people measure performance based on track times. If the Mustang went around a track faster than a Camaro, how many people here would have bashed the car?

-Alex
How many people here would be interested in that car? NOne would have bashed and none are bashing the car. We are just saying for the money there are better options as far as power and speed are concerned. Like I said earlier GM owes the Taxpayer a ton of money and they are making niche cars. Why?

Were you expecting them to beat the car using less power, technology from the 90s and winter tires?

-Alex
The fact they had to use 305mm tires, a 7.0 liter engine and alot of other stuff speaks highyy of the boss to me.

[saunupe1911]

How many people here would be interested in that car? NOne would have bashed and none are bashing the car. We are just saying for the money there are better options as far as power and speed are concerned. Like I said earlier GM owes the Taxpayer a ton of money and they are making niche cars. Why?


The fact they had to use 305mm tires, a 7.0 liter engine and alot of other stuff speaks highyy of the boss to me.

I like the niche car thing because its pushing the entire industry.

I totally agree with the second comment. 305 all 4 corner, LS7, stripped down....I have seen all this before! It's nice performance car, but it's not impressive at all!!!

Now take the Boss LS with all the creature comforts, looks, exclusivity, and performance...that's impressive. And keep in mind that these LS owners will have been enjoying their car and bragging rights for 3 yrs come March 2014 (Z/28 expected shipments). And they are gearing up for the next gen Mustang in less 10 months from the Z/28 release.

[Dominic Toretto]

The fact they had to use 305mm tires, a 7.0 liter engine and alot of other stuff speaks highyy of the boss to me.

Who said they had to use an LS7, carbon brakes, or anything else to beat a Boss? If anything, it sounds like they wanted the car to humiliate a Boss. Like the Chief Engineer in the video said, they are aiming higher than a Mustang based on the list of cars he said he wants the Z28 to be mentioned with. And the fact that they are using top end Corvette materials just confirms it.

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

Now take the Boss LS with all the creature comforts, looks, exclusivity, and performance...that's impressive.

ROFL. Okay so the Z/28 can be had with the same creature comforts as a Boss, looks are subjective, going to also be exclusive and the performance kills a Boss 302 and that is NOT impressive!?

So exact same criteria but it's not impressive lol. You're sounding extremely hypocritical now. If you just don't like the Camaro, I would accept that answer. But since both cars have the same stats you like with the Boss, and deem it not impressive is just sounding trolling.

-Alex

[saunupe1911]

ROFL. Okay so the Z/28 can be had with the same creature comforts as a Boss, looks are subjective, going to also be exclusive and the performance kills a Boss 302 and that is NOT impressive!?

So exact same criteria but it's not impressive lol. You're sounding extremely hypocritical now. If you just don't like the Camaro, I would accept that answer. But since both cars have the same stats you like with the Boss, and deem it not impressive is just sounding trolling.


-Alex

Removal of Sound deadening and Nav are some nice features that a ton of people care about, which is why thousands of buyers chose a M3 or C63 at this price level.

Read my earlier posts. It's not impressive because this level of performance is seen in the Continental Tire race series from the Camaro....and the Mustang too. I already knew what it can do! They have had the LS7 since 2006! And it took GM 3 yrs to finally catch up. None of that is impressive, period!!! I'm glad they finally caught the hell up! Stop implying what I'm saying and read exactly what I typed.

[Dominic Toretto]

Removal of Sound deadening and Nav are some nice features that a ton of people care about, which is why thousands of buyers chose a M3 or C63 at this price level.

Read my earlier posts. It's not impressive because this level of performance is seen in the Continental Tire race series from the Camaro....and the Mustang too. I already knew what it can do! They have had the LS7 since 2006! And it took GM 3 yrs to finally catch up. None of that is impressive, period!!! I'm glad they finally caught the hell up! Stop implying what I'm saying and read exactly what I typed.

Do you really think the demographic of people that want to buy this car want sound deadening or navigation?

I did read what you typed. I even quoted it and replied exactly to it. There were no implications.

-Alex

[DirtyD]

Were you expecting them to beat the car using less power, technology from the 90s and winter tires?

-Alex

The fact they had to use 305mm tires, a 7.0 liter engine and alot of other stuff speaks highyy of the boss to me.

What re-rv7 said, exactly.

Had Ford spent as much time and development on the Boss on top of the GT as GM did solely on the Z/28 over the SS, the Boss would most likely be able to hang with it damn near to the millisecond. I did read somewhere that GM originally planned to release the Z/28 in 2011, but unforeseen circumstances apparantly came about. Even then, the Z/28 uses an already in production engine, an already in production transmission, and already in production magnetic ride IRS, and new fancy R compound tires, which aren't street legal. So it's not like GM custom built this car, from the design board forward, specifically to race and beat the Boss. I think a lot of people see it as a built from scratch car, with everything made for the car, when it's not.

[saunupe1911]

Do you really think the demographic of people that want to buy this car want sound deadening or navigation?

I did read what you typed. I even quoted it and replied exactly to it. There were no implications.

-Alex

And I asked that question on MotorTrend. Who is the demographic? GM has never announced it. It's a tweener. There is no clear cut demographic. We can only go by performance spec and price point. Talk to a Porsche, M3, C63, Vette owner with magnetic shocks, or even an SL owner. Simple comfort like sound deadening means a lot to them. Remember that individuals that can afford a $60k car usually aren't young. They are older guys. A little comfort matters.

[Dominic Toretto]

Even then, the Z/28 uses an already in production engine, an already in production transmission, and already in production magnetic ride IRS, and new fancy R compound tires, which aren't street legal. So it's not like GM custom built this car, from the design board forward, specifically to race and beat the Boss. I think a lot of people see it as a built from scratch car, with everything made for the car, when it's not.

Very fair argument Derek. That is a plus to the Boss 302, everything was built specifically for that car. The Z/28 does use leftover ZO6 and ZR1 parts. I think the only new parts are the aero.

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

And I asked that question on MotorTrend. Who is the demographic? GM has never announced it. It's a tweener. There is no clear cut demographic. We can only go by performance spec and price point. Talk to a Porsche, M3, C63, Vette owner with magnetic shocks, or even an SL owner. Simple comfort like sound deadening means a lot to them. Remember that individuals that can afford a $60k car aren't young. They are older guys. A little comfort matters.

Interesting you bring that up. Being a Corvette owner for several years, I was disappointed that they had to cater to all the people whining about comfort this and seats that. Made the weight of the car increase, then people complained about the weight.

To me there are two different Corvette buyers. People that like to buy boutique cars, and actual car enthusiasts. Everyone that loved the performance, only complained about the seats. Everything else was neglible. But of course the enthusiasts will always be far outnumbered by the majority of people that simply buy/lease cars.

Oh and there were several threads started about young guys(25-40year olds) ordering C7s. So young people can absoutely afford a $60. Hell, there's a member of this board that posted about maybe buying a GTR which is a lot more expensive:).

I think the way the market is shifting, is that across the board, people want cars to be more of a gadget to play with instead of drive. Performance is so close at the top echelon of cars, that the real differences come from brand loyalty or gimmicks. It's no secret that Chevrolet wanted the Corvette to appeal to a younger crowd and they achieved that with sacrificing performance. The C7 could have been faster but adding over 100lbs of crap most people won't use hurt what could have been.

-Alex

[saunupe1911]

Well maybe we'll see more of these weight reduced track versions. The best thing about the Camaro at this point is they offer one for every type of driver/person at numerous price points. Now that's impressive!

[DirtyD]

That's just the way I see it, as unbiased as I can. You can kind of argue that same point for the Boss, but not as heavily and holding of an argument, Since Ford took what they had already done with the GT and expanded on it.

But I will say that I don't think GM can have enough damn models of the Camaro out! Holy shit there are so many!

Base, RS, SS, 1LE, ZL1, Z/28

Might as well make the Camaro it's own damn brand name as it has enough models to support a whole dealership.

[Dominic Toretto]

Since Ford took what they had already done with the GT and expanded on it.

But I will say that I don't think GM can have enough damn models of the Camaro out! Holy shit there are so many!

Base, RS, SS, 1LE, ZL1, Z/28

Might as well make the Camaro it's own damn brand name as it has enough models to support a whole dealership.

Perhaps you can educate me since I don't know any history on Mustangs but, I would assume the original Boss 302 was the same concept on the current model. Just a more track-oriented version of a GT. Educate me if I am wrong :)

Chevy does have too many damn models of that and the Corvette. It's like buying a 911. I miss the days when you either wanted the car or you didn't.

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

Well maybe we'll see more of these weight reduced track versions. The best thing about the Camaro at this point is they offer one for every type of driver/person at numerous price points. Now that's impressive!

I personally prefer the Viper's method. You get one car, or you get a better version. You either want the car or you don't lol.

-Alex

[DirtyD]

Perhaps you can educate me since I don't know any history on Mustangs but, I would assume the original Boss 302 was the same concept on the current model. Just a more track-oriented version of a GT. Educate me if I am wrong :)

Chevy does have too many damn models of that and the Corvette. It's like buying a 911. I miss the days when you either wanted the car or you didn't.

-Alex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boss_302_Mustang

[merlinmol]

It was funny reading this whole thread. I understand that a lot of people here only like Ford's, however, it's sad to put down another car manufaturer based on opinions.

I saw someone say something about GM owing the taxpayer's money. Last time I checked they have already paid back the money they borrowed. Also, don't go saying as if Ford never needed to borrow money because they did too, a couple years before GM and Chrysler. Everyone was hurting back then.

I also saw comments about needing more power to win. You cannot compare power alone to see which is the obvious faster car. Power to weight ratio makes that difference. By now I'd think that everyone knows the Camaro is going to be the heavier car until they re-design the chassis/suspension (which was borrowed from another car to get the Camaro going)

As for the R compound tires. How many people here drive on R compound? Quite a bite the last time I checked. Also if it they were track only tires it wouldn't be allowed on the street which I am pretty sure the z28 is.



But I will say that I don't think GM can have enough damn models of the Camaro out! Holy shit there are so many!

Base, RS, SS, 1LE, ZL1, Z/28

I do love this one the best though. Last time I checked Mustang had the same number of models. When you went to price one out you have a V6 base, V6 Premium, GT Base, GT Premium, Boss, and GT500. That also doesn't include Roush and Saleen that you buy from the dealers. Those are unlisted vehicles that you can order direct from Ford. I understand that most of those are the same car with different options. But Ford sells them as different models'. You also cannot include 1LE as a model as it is an option on the SS. Just like the Track Pack or Recaro's are. One other way to look at it then is the RS = V6, SS = GT, ZL1 = GT500, Z/28 = Boss. So where are all of these extra models?

[DirtyD]

I do love this one the best though. Last time I checked Mustang had the same number of models. When you went to price one out you have a V6 base, V6 Premium, GT Base, GT Premium, Boss, and GT500. That also doesn't include Roush and Saleen that you buy from the dealers. Those are unlisted vehicles that you can order direct from Ford. I understand that most of those are the same car with different options. But Ford sells them as different models'. You also cannot include 1LE as a model as it is an option on the SS. Just like the Track Pack or Recaro's are. One other way to look at it then is the RS = V6, SS = GT, ZL1 = GT500, Z/28 = Boss. So where are all of these extra models?
You do have me on that. I guess what I was saying those is that all of those "model" are actually badged on the cars. Mustangs are badged as a V6, GT, Boss, or GT500. You don't see someone running around with "V6 premium" on their car, or "400A Package", etc. That's what I was getting at.

[merlinmol]

It's a different way. I do like Ford's way a little better. GM gives you everything with few options which makes the cost start high. Ford allows you to get as basic as you want and option it out. The only thing I don't like with Ford is the things they wont let you get unless you buy a Premium. For example. I was very mad that I paid 2500 for the track pack but I cannot get the track apps unless I pay another 4000 for a premium. To me that is bullshit. There are some other options that don't make sense that you can only get with a premium.

[re-rx7]

I saw someone say something about GM owing the taxpayer's money. Last time I checked they have already paid back the money they borrowed. ?

Stock is worth crap. Still owe us about 15 billion

[BLK2012GT]

Chevy sucks. So y'all can EABOD.

[DirtyD]

It's a different way. I do like Ford's way a little better. GM gives you everything with few options which makes the cost start high. Ford allows you to get as basic as you want and option it out. The only thing I don't like with Ford is the things they wont let you get unless you buy a Premium. For example. I was very mad that I paid 2500 for the track pack but I cannot get the track apps unless I pay another 4000 for a premium. To me that is bullshit. There are some other options that don't make sense that you can only get with a premium.
Agreed. I think that Track Apps should have been an option for base GT cars. I would have gladly paid another $1,200 to get that in my base car, because I know everything is already there for me to use it, just need the gauge cluster.

Leave the leather seats and the nav unit for the premium people.

[blownaltered]

It was funny reading this whole thread. I understand that a lot of people here only like Ford's, however, it's sad to put down another car manufaturer based on opinions.

I saw someone say something about GM owing the taxpayer's money. Last time I checked they have already paid back the money they borrowed. Also, don't go saying as if Ford never needed to borrow money because they did too, a couple years before GM and Chrysler. Everyone was hurting back then.




The government still has billions of dollars worth of Chevy stock that was part of the government bail out. Chevy is trying to force the government to sell it at a loss of billions. So yes they do owe us money and the stock we are selling is at a loss that we will never get back. Its good Obama accounting.

[Dominic Toretto]

You know the Z/28 is a great car when people have to scrape for excuses like this to not like it. I've never been to a GM board meeting but, I do assume that a Camaro was not one of the board members.

-Alex

[re-rx7]

I love when Gm/lsx lovers come on here. LOL its a great car for now. A few years from now i will be something else. Great track car but since i dont track that often, I would spend my money on a shelby and drag Z28 ass errwhere.

[Dominic Toretto]

I love when Gm/lsx lovers come on here.

What's wrong with liking cars from other manufacturers? So far as I have seen, no one is bothered by you liking imports but, this is a Ford forum.

-Alex

[DirtyD]

Never said it wasn't a great car. It's doing what it was built to do, and that's tear the track up. But it's all in retrospect as to what exactly GM is trying to accomplish with this car.

[merlinmol]

The government still has billions of dollars worth of Chevy stock that was part of the government bail out. Chevy is trying to force the government to sell it at a loss of billions. So yes they do owe us money and the stock we are selling is at a loss that we will never get back. Its good Obama accounting.

Ok, I stand corrected. There is still 15+ billion in stock that hasn't been sold that wont be 100% recovered. However, I found this article talking about how much would be lost if there wasn't a bailout due to job lost and it actually makes sense, provided it is fairly accurate of course. http://wardsauto.com/blog/dear-taxpayer-your-auto-bailout-loan-repaid-interest

[Grandpa]

Dom, just let the thread roll. I rather read this bailout stuff rather than yet another thread of you and RX7 butting heads about everything under the sun.

[Dominic Toretto]

Dom, just let the thread roll. I rather read this bailout stuff rather than yet another thread of you and RX7 butting heads about everything under the sun.

You do realize the other thread was created so that people that want to discuss the bailout can have their own thread so you would NOT have to see it in this thread right?

This reminds me of being in pre-K and seeing the children trying to force a square shape into a triangle opening. We have an Off Topic section and an Other Cars section but oddly enough discussing GMs bailout is appropriate in a the Other Cars section in a thread about a Camaro. Very interesting.

-Alex

[Grandpa]

You do realize the other thread was created so that people that want to discuss the bailout can have their own thread so you would NOT have to see it in this thread right?

This reminds me of being in pre-K and seeing the children trying to force a square shape into a triangle opening. We have an Off Topic section and an Other Cars section but oddly enough discussing GMs bailout is appropriate in a the Other Cars section in a thread about a Camaro. Very interesting.

-Alex

It's better than reading you and RX7 arguing about anything.

[Dominic Toretto]

It's better than reading you and RX7 arguing about anything.

... since trolling is allowed, I'll just unsubscribe to this thread.

-Alex

[DirtyD]

... since trolling is allowed, I'll just unsubscribe to this thread.

-Alex

You're speaking to one of the biggest trolls on the board. And a damn good one.

[Grandpa]

... since trolling is allowed, I'll just unsubscribe to this thread.

-Alex

Trolling on DFW50's? Say it aint so!

You're speaking to one of the biggest trolls on the board. And a damn good one.

Just because you're so easy to get going with your over the top womanly kneejerk reactions doesn't mean I'm a good troll. :winner_first_h4h:

[DirtyD]

Trolling on DFW50's? Say it aint so!



Just because you're so easy to get going with your over the top womanly kneejerk reactions doesn't mean I'm a good troll. :winner_first_h4h:

A couple of times I wasn't sure of you were just that dumb...

[Dominic Toretto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08E1aQeV3mQ

-Alex

[garner]

Local dealer has one. Dad said sticker was $76k but didn't ask how much markup was cause he was hardly impressed. He said he'd rather trade his c7 in on a used zr1 or a the new c7 z06 when it comes out