Cobra Jet vs. Boss IM Comparisons

[Dominic Toretto]

Saw this on the other forum and though people here would be interested. Here's the thread: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-2014-mustangs-354/961783-dyno-results-boss-intake-manifold-cobra-jet-intake-manifold.html

I would have liked to see this comparison in TX with some 93 octane. Man these cars leave a lot on the table in stock form. Impressive gains especially for the minimal amount of mods.

-Alex

[wbt]

No need for this info.

[ochoblanco]

I usually take what I read off SVTPERFORMANCE with a grain of salt.

[Dominic Toretto]

Not sure if you have seen this. I am not big on dyno numbers. Track numbers are where it is IMO.

http://www.dfw50s.com/showthread.php?t=2485

Track numbers do count more than power. But power does help you move around a track faster yes?

I usually take what I read off SVTPERFORMANCE with a grain of salt.

I say that about all forums. The meat and potatoes from that thread though(at least what I took from it) is that there IS a power AND torque advantage in the Cobra Jet intake manifold over the Boss 302 manifold. Say what you will regarding the other posts but, the dyno charts can't really be argued. Same day test, same mods on the same car. The CJIM clearly came out on top :)

-Alex

[Rebelracer568]

You can have 500 hp and still lose to a 400hp car. Track times say it all

[wbt]

No need for this info.

[Dominic Toretto]

You can have 500 hp and still lose to a 400hp car. Track times say it all

True. But this thread isn't about lap times, it's about the performance gains of a particular modification vs. similar part. Plain and simple.

It's a moot point really. You can dial in a car's system for a particular track and use the same setup and be less effective at another track. All things being equal, tires, LCAs, gearing, shocks, transmission, cage, harness etc, would you prefer to have more or less power than you have now?

-Alex

[Rebelracer568]

True. But this thread isn't about lap times, it's about the performance gains of a particular modification vs. similar part. Plain and simple.

It's a moot point really. You can dial in a car's system for a particular track and use the same setup and be less effective at another track. All things being equal, tires, LCAs, gearing, shocks, transmission, cage, harness etc, would you prefer to have more or less power than you have now?

-Alex
I never said anything about lap times. Im talking drag racing. More hp doesnt mean faster. Is hp nice? Yes absolutely. Is it necessary? No in racing tq is just as important as hp. Especially drag racing. Id take a car that makes 350hp with 400 tq over 400 hp with 350 tq any day.
for instance my low hp 66 stang will out run 450+hp cars because it has more tq. Better 60' equals faster et. So hp is not always important

[Dominic Toretto]

I never said anything about lap times. Im talking drag racing. More hp doesnt mean faster. Is hp nice? Yes absolutely. Is it necessary? No in racing tq is just as important as hp. Especially drag racing. Id take a car that makes 350hp with 400 tq over 400 hp with 350 tq any day.
for instance my low hp 66 stang will out run 450+hp cars because it has more tq. Better 60' equals faster et. So hp is not always important

Are you referring to just Mustangs or cars in general? Ferraris have incredible acceleration while having very high horsepower and very low amounts of torque. Same with NA Porsches. This has been true before launch control too.

Hell, a Boss 302 is faster than a normal GT and the GT has more torque but less power.

-Alex

[wbt]

No need for this info.

[Rebelracer568]

Are you comparing a boss with 3.73 gears to a normal gt with 3.31's. So yea boss will be faster with quicker acceleration. Torque is what gets you out of the hole on the track. Hp keeps you pulling. So back to your post yes hp is great but without torque your car will not 60' foot well, but pull hard with the high rpms.
Like wbt said dyno numbers dont always mean faster times.
I have several race cars and street cars. Only 2 ever seen dynos. 1 just cause we wanted to try it and 2nd I needed a dyno tune. The real dyno is in the track time

[kdanner]

I usually take what I read off SVTPERFORMANCE with a grain of salt.

This. I refer to it as the short bus forum.

You can dial in a car's system for a particular track and use the same setup and be less effective at another track. All things being equal, tires, LCAs, gearing, shocks, transmission, cage, harness etc, would you prefer to have more or less power than you have now?


I take things like suspension/traction out of the picture and use the one mile dyno down at Beeville. I really don't get all the talk about this manifold lately, I already proved what the CJ manifold would do way back in March, the car ran 152.8 to the half, and 180.0 to the mile. For comparison purposes latemodelrestoration's 2013 with a 2.3 Whipple ran 147.6/180.0, a TVS blown 2013 GT ran 145.0/166.9, 4 2013 GT500s at 142.7/164.8, 150.9/166.1, 151.0/176.9, and 147.2/177.8, plus 8 more earlier GT500s behind me too.

[ochoblanco]

Can you point us to any newer Boss 302 Mustangs that have run 10's N/A?

Me...I run 10's every time out...

...then around the mid 12 second mark I finish the 1/4 ;-)

[Dominic Toretto]

Guys, the mod made more power according to the dyno chart that was supplied by the poster on the other forum. Unless he was lying about what mods were done with each pull.

I never said or implied that a car with more power will definitely be faster. There's tons of things that have to do with speed around a track. I never argued that. How is this so off topic now?

-Alex

[re-rx7]

My question is they are saying there was a gain in midrange tq/hp over the boss. However, the stock Im already makes more mid tq/hp then Boss. So are they just getting that back and a little more on top?

[BLK2012GT]

Does it really matter if you lose or gain mid range power when you're racing you're above 6k rpms all the time?

[Rebelracer568]

If you read the whole thing shaun at aed says intake s are basically the same and believes the few extra hp come from the bigger throttle body and cai. I see this being true.the cobra jet tb is larger than our 80mm tb. Is it worth the money I personally dont think so. But drag racers want every little hp. I think its awesome intake but not worth the extra money

[Dominic Toretto]

If you read the whole thing shaun at aed says intake s are basically the same and believes the few extra hp come from the bigger throttle body and cai. I see this being true.the cobra jet tb is larger than our 80mm tb. Is it worth the money I personally dont think so. But drag racers want every little hp. I think its awesome intake but not worth the extra money

Very fair assessment. What size throttlebody is on the JC? I didn't notice. Guessing 120mm?

-Alex

[re-rx7]

If you read the whole thing shaun at aed says intake s are basically the same and believes the few extra hp come from the bigger throttle body and cai. I see this being true.the cobra jet tb is larger than our 80mm tb. Is it worth the money I personally dont think so. But drag racers want every little hp. I think its awesome intake but not worth the extra money
Id like to see results with a blower.

[Dan12GT]

My question is they are saying there was a gain in midrange tq/hp over the boss. However, the stock Im already makes more mid tq/hp then Boss. So are they just getting that back and a little more on top?

Ya i'd be interested to see how the CJ manifold stacks up against stock IM numbers and where it picks up power. The Boss manifold has shown time and again to lose power down range of 6500 rpms and only pick back up and add some from 6500+. Looks like the CJ manifold does the same with picking up more power at a lower power band but I'm interested where it will start making more power over the stock IM and how long / how much will it make over stock. Comparing it to just the boss IM isn't a great / full comparison to what can be had performance wise with the CJ manifold.

With that said I wonder if TS's Ported Boss Manifold can go toe to toe with a CJ manifold.

[Dominic Toretto]

Ya i'd be interested to see how the CJ manifold stacks up against stock IM numbers and where it picks up power. The Boss manifold has shown time and again to lose power down range of 6500 rpms and only pick back up and add some from 6500+. Looks like the CJ manifold does the same with picking up more power at a lower power band but I'm interested where it will start making more power over the stock IM and how long / how much will it make over stock. Comparing it to just the boss IM isn't a great / full comparison to what can be had performance wise with the CJ manifold.

With that said I wonder if TS's Ported Boss Manifold can go toe to toe with a CJ manifold.

Couldn't we just compare the dyno chart with someone's dyno here of there bolt on dyno with a stock GT manifold? Plenty of people here have the same basic mods as the guy with the CJM.

-Alex

[Dan12GT]

Comparing 2 cars with similar mods isn't the best method. Using the same car, same day, same temps, same dyno, same atmospheric conditions would control the variations the best. I was just curious if TS essentially accomplished what the CJ IM did with a boss IM porting. Seems the CJ manifold and Boss manifold ported by TS find power sooner the same way.

[re-rx7]

Ya i'd be interested to see how the CJ manifold stacks up against stock IM numbers and where it picks up power. The Boss manifold has shown time and again to lose power down range of 6500 rpms and only pick back up and add some from 6500+. Looks like the CJ manifold does the same with picking up more power at a lower power band but I'm interested where it will start making more power over the stock IM and how long / how much will it make over stock. Comparing it to just the boss IM isn't a great / full comparison to what can be had performance wise with the CJ manifold.

With that said I wonder if TS's Ported Boss Manifold can go toe to toe with a CJ manifold.
this
Comparing 2 cars with similar mods isn't the best method. Using the same car, same day, same temps, same dyno, same atmospheric conditions would control the variations the best. I was just curious if TS essentially accomplished what the CJ IM did with a boss IM porting. Seems the CJ manifold and Boss manifold ported by TS find power sooner the same way.

Id bet gd money its identical to stock to boss swap with a lil more up top at a higher rpm. No thanks.:boobs:

[kdanner]

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do.

Does it really matter if you lose or gain mid range power when you're racing you're above 6k rpms all the time?

You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows:

1-2 9000 RPM
2-3 8700 RPM
3-4 7700 RPM

Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again.


If you read the whole thing shaun at aed says intake s are basically the same and believes the few extra hp come from the bigger throttle body and cai.

Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?

[re-rx7]

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do.

You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows:

1-2 9000 RPM
2-3 8700 RPM
3-4 7700 RPM

Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again.




Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?

Jesus, he was say when your racing in the 1/4 or whatever that most of the time the car is above 6k rpm. Which is true. Look out we got a badass over here:yuno:. Most dyno's show minimal gains with a boss in fact almost all. For a daily its pretty damn hard to beat the stock coyote IM. The difference even in the 1/4 is even minimal. Before you say "on the dyno who cares" Show me a bolt on car that made a significantly faster pass with the boss vs the Oem.

[Rebelracer568]

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do.



You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows:

1-2 9000 RPM
2-3 8700 RPM
3-4 7700 RPM

Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again.




Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?
I understand. People dont like forum. Heck there alot of bs on this forum. All I was stating is what I read on the link. No reason to get butt hurt over stating something. I dont believe half of stuff I read on forum cause most time people are full of it. Now I dont think there is a big difference between the to intakes. But its also a drag intake. Boss is designed for road racing. Hence BOSS intake. So the cobra jet intake will be better than boss for drag racing.

[BLK2012GT]

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do.



You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows:

1-2 9000 RPM
2-3 8700 RPM
3-4 7700 RPM

Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again.




Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?

Yup I'm full of bullshit again. Fucking asshole maybe if you learn how to read correctly you might understand what I was saying.

[Grandpa]

Does it really matter if you lose or gain mid range power when you're racing you're above 6k rpms all the time?

I would agree with that if it were nothing more than a dedicated track car. I think most of us use them more as an all around street car. i like the twisty backroads as well as drag racing so the low to midrange matters to me. I personally dont think that a street car with no low/midrange is a lot of fun on the street. It really comes down to how the owner plans to use their car.

[ochoblanco]

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do.



You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows:

1-2 9000 RPM
2-3 8700 RPM
3-4 7700 RPM

Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again.




Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?

This...the AED koolaid drunk on this site is unreal. Typical SVTPERFORMANCE homers.

[BLK2012GT]

I would agree with that if it were nothing more than a dedicated track car. I think most of us use them more as an all around street car. i like the twisty backroads as well as drag racing so the low to midrange matters to me. I personally dont think that a street car with no low/midrange is a lot of fun on the street. It really comes down to how the owner plans to use their car.

True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

[re-rx7]

True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

:troll3:

[Dan12GT]

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results. We don't race dynos. 180 MPH for me, and plenty of you saw wbt run tens from the very first pass with the manifold on the car in August on a track most of you guys say is no good. Those are real world results of what that manifold can do.



You're above 6000 all the time huh? So, you shift your car as follows:

1-2 9000 RPM
2-3 8700 RPM
3-4 7700 RPM

Because that's the minimum RPM you're going to be making those shifts at to keep it above 6000. Either that or you're full of bullshit, again.




Again, the short bus forum, his BS isn't put up with anywhere else. Shaun is the guy who couldn't make his own car run better with a Boss intake. Why would anyone listen to him?



For 1 most of use don't live at the track so we are looking for something easily tangible as a measure to go by if the investment in an expensive manifold is worth it or not.

2. Say all you want about dyno numbers yes, they don't equal a translation to track results but if you take a car already setup with a boss manifold rip that off on the same day with the same dyno in the same relative atmospheric conditions / temperatures and you see a consistent number difference with a new setup I think its pretty easy to say now you have some form of evidence to make a decision if it's worth it or not.

3. The Boss manifold has a consistent dyno proven history of the numbers falling hard under ~6500 rpms. That's been proven consistent on many comparisons on many dyno's on many cars. Obviously the results will vary but all are consistent with what to expect.

The guy on SVT Performance was essentially trying to show the comparison.

Unless your are making a serious amount of more power say like 30+ or more I think you can expect to see track results given you are a excellent consistent driver, which again most of us are not so its harder for us to use the track results as a medium for comparison.

[kdanner]

I understand. People dont like forum. Heck there alot of bs on this forum. All I was stating is what I read on the link. No reason to get butt hurt over stating something. I dont believe half of stuff I read on forum cause most time people are full of it. Now I dont think there is a big difference between the to intakes. But its also a drag intake. Boss is designed for road racing. Hence BOSS intake. So the cobra jet intake will be better than boss for drag racing.

Actually this forum is great compared to most.

I don't know how you have determined one is for road racing and the other is for drag racing when the runner length is identical, and the runner volume is nearly identical. Put CJ on a Boss302S/R and it will certainly lap quicker than it will with the Boss manifold. The Boss had some compromises made for factory assembly, it has plenty of firewall clearance so the assembly workers can install the engine from the bottom like every other Mustang. The CJ removes these compromises. It also removes the cost compromise of re-purposing the original GT throttle body.

I've owned the CJ manifold for 6 months, I had the Boss 302 engine before you could even buy a Boss 302 Mustang, I don't rely on someone else to do any of the work or even tuning, I have actual experience and real results, I'm not just making things up as I go based on what some wannabe tooner with a pack full of nutswingers on SVTP tells people. And BTW Shaun's power curves suck, look how they fall off above 6500. These cars can absolutely flatline from 6500 until the PCM quits, he's missing a bunch up top.
https://sphotos-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/181577_10150191783928712_1519551_n.jpg

[Rebelracer568]

So with that being said. The only difference between the boss 302 intake and cj is the fact your have to run a gt500 tb and cai. So that giving you the extra hp. Im not knocking you or anything. More air and fuel and a different tune is hp difference between the two so yes the cj would be better on boss 302s. I was just saying the boss intake is designed for the boss mustang which is a road course car, and the cobra jet is designed for the drag car.
Its funny you say how his car falls after 6500. My car with boss intake makes peak hp at 6800rpms

[Dominic Toretto]

Comparing 2 cars with similar mods isn't the best method. Using the same car, same day, same temps, same dyno, same atmospheric conditions would control the variations the best.

I agree, you are 100% correct.

You guys need to quit looking at/asking for dyno numbers and start looking at on track results.

I understand your point to a degree. Yes a manifold will perform differently with the car not moving as opposed to being on a track with ambient air being forced to the induction system. However, a dyno, for the time being, is the best method of comparing the two parts.

Trying to compare that on a track is going to be unimaginably more difficult. I would say do this same dyno, then on the same day put the car with both intakes on an automatic(to reduce driver error) and see what happens.

For 1 most of use don't live at the track so we are looking for something easily tangible as a measure to go by if the investment in an expensive manifold is worth it or not.

2. Say all you want about dyno numbers yes, they don't equal a translation to track results but if you take a car already setup with a boss manifold rip that off on the same day with the same dyno in the same relative atmospheric conditions / temperatures and you see a consistent number difference with a new setup I think its pretty easy to say now you have some form of evidence to make a decision if it's worth it or not.

3. The Boss manifold has a consistent dyno proven history of the numbers falling hard under ~6500 rpms. That's been proven consistent on many comparisons on many dyno's on many cars. Obviously the results will vary but all are consistent with what to expect.

The guy on SVT Performance was essentially trying to show the comparison.

Unless your are making a serious amount of more power say like 30+ or more I think you can expect to see track results given you are a excellent consistent driver, which again most of us are not so its harder for us to use the track results as a medium for comparison.

+1! This guy understand the point of this thread.

-Alex

[Grandpa]

True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

Haha, very true.

In my opinion, what an owner needs to do is sit back and think about the end goal of what they want from their car and how they will use it primarily. Everyone has a different idea what they want from their car from being a monster at the track, from a roll on the high way, autocross or just a fun all around street car. I think what a lot of owners seem to forget is that when you typically mod a car to be strong in one area you are giving something up in another. But as long as the owner is happy with it is what matters.

Myself, I'd like an all around strong performing street car that is fun as hell to drive. Strong power, good handling for my country backroad driving that I do love so much and some occasional drag racing/pull with friends. I know that focusing on the handling more I will have to sacrifice some of the launching ability of my car and I'm okay with that. My days of spending every weekend at the track chasing magical ET numbers are over for me. While it will never be the fastest track car here, it will certainly be very fun to drive. :)

[Dominic Toretto]

:Pshyco:

-Alex

[ochoblanco]

True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

You're arguing against kdanner and wbt... And excuse my complete assholeness but its coming from you who completely shit talked about how fast your NA s197 is/would be. I'd bet as much as you want that kdanner or wbt stock would destroy you. So I take what they say or BruceH and learn from it.

[wbt]

If you read the whole thing shaun at aed says intake s are basically the same and believes the few extra hp come from the bigger throttle body and cai. I see this being true.the cobra jet tb is larger than our 80mm tb. Is it worth the money I personally dont think so. But drag racers want every little hp. I think its awesome intake but not worth the extra money

I am using a stock GT500 TB which probably has less surface area than the stock 80mm unit. Shaun is just guessing.

IMO the gains over the Boss come from a more efficient upper plenum design specifically where it meets with the runners.

True but the "real racer guys who know everything about everything" says the only way to know what the improvements are is at the track so what's the point of the mid range gain or lost if you are racing it.

So how much HP did your car make on a dyno and what times did it run at the track on the same night I ran my car?

-67Vb458Y04

You're arguing against kdanner and wbt... And excuse my complete assholeness but its coming from you who completely shit talked about how fast your NA s197 is/would be. I'd bet as much as you want that kdanner or wbt stock would destroy you. So I take what they say or BruceH and learn from it.

It already happened. See above. :)

We are sharing our experience with you guys and I think we have proven what works and what doesn't. Both of us have had 3+ years of experience at the track with these cars and spent a lot of time and money developing our combinations. We both have spent much longer than that doing this sport. We don't know everything and I have yet to meet anyone who does. It's a constant learning curve.

I understand what we do doesn't apply to everyone's needs and there are some who will disagree or want to argue. If some of you want to spend money on stuff that doesn't work that's fine. If some of you want to use dyno numbers as gospel that is fine. I think Jeff's car is a perfect example where it put down good numbers on a dyno but can't get down the track. He built the house before the foundation and now he is stuck trying to figure out how to put a foundation under it.

For those wondering about comparing results between the stock intake and Boss intake. Similar conditions, different days at the track, same mods minus the intake change.

Stock intake:
XXcW8Z2n43k

Boss intake:
DZ8g2X2SF7U

Like I posted in the sticky, there are gains to be had using the Boss intake. It doesn't really make more peak HP vs. the stock intake however from ~6,800 to 7,700+ it makes the same power (unless you are using an AED tune). The advantage to this when drag racing is you are making peak power longer resulting in better times.

The CJ intake has a similar power curve as the Boss but is a more efficient design which results in more TQ/HP. Is it worth spending ~$1K for the needed parts vs. ~$450 for the Boss? As mentioned, it depends on your goals.

[BLK2012GT]

You're arguing against kdanner and wbt... And excuse my complete assholeness but its coming from you who completely shit talked about how fast your NA s197 is/would be. I'd bet as much as you want that kdanner or wbt stock would destroy you. So I take what they say or BruceH and learn from it.

Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy. I want to have a fun car to drive and I have it. And I'm not arguing with anyone. I really haven't read shit what they've said in this post except for when he said I was full of bullshit about what I said which what I said is true. At the track who cares about midrange gains when you are at 6k or above the whole time you're racing.

[BLK2012GT]

Haha, very true.

In my opinion, what an owner needs to do is sit back and think about the end goal of what they want from their car and how they will use it primarily. Everyone has a different idea what they want from their car from being a monster at the track, from a roll on the high way, autocross or just a fun all around street car. I think what a lot of owners seem to forget is that when you typically mod a car to be strong in one area you are giving something up in another. But as long as the owner is happy with it is what matters.

Myself, I'd like an all around strong performing street car that is fun as hell to drive. Strong power, good handling for my country backroad driving that I do love so much and some occasional drag racing/pull with friends. I know that focusing on the handling more I will have to sacrifice some of the launching ability of my car and I'm okay with that. My days of spending every weekend at the track chasing magical ET numbers are over for me. While it will never be the fastest track car here, it will certainly be very fun to drive. :)

Exactly. I've had my days at the track 10 years ago when I lived there every weekend. I could careless now. Sure i'll go every now and then but I'm not going to try to break records and shit. Hence why I haven't bought another set of wheels and slicks. My car is a fast fun street car and that's what I wanted.

[Dominic Toretto]

The CJ intake has a similar power curve as the Boss but is a more efficient design which results in more TQ/HP. Is it worth spending ~$1K for the needed parts vs. ~$450 for the Boss? As mentioned, it depends on your goals.

So the thread has now come full circle. We saw this on the dyno charts. So what was all the back and forth banter for lol?

-Alex

[re-rx7]

Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy. I want to have a fun car to drive and I have it. And I'm not arguing with anyone. I really haven't read shit what they've said in this post except for when he said I was full of bullshit about what I said which what I said is true. At the track who cares about midrange gains when you are at 6k or above the whole time you're racing.
That's a damn gd post. I don't live my life a qtr at a time. I'm not chasing a magic time slip.

[wbt]

Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy. I want to have a fun car to drive and I have it. And I'm not arguing with anyone. I really haven't read shit what they've said in this post except for when he said I was full of bullshit about what I said which what I said is true. At the track who cares about midrange gains when you are at 6k or above the whole time you're racing.

With you on the bottle maybe. I am not a street racer but a couple of months ago I offered to meet you and line up at Ennis. I showed, ran 10's, and you never bothered to introduce yourself and take that offer up. The way I see it is you spent a lot of money on an 11 sec. car. History isn't on your side when making claims.

So the thread has now come full circle. We saw this on the dyno charts. So what was all the back and forth banter for lol?

-Alex

Like I mentioned in this post:
http://www.dfw50s.com/showpost.php?p=48018&postcount=6

....I need more data before saying it is worth spending the extra $1K on a CJ setup. I'll update the sticky as we capture more info. Someone else's dyno numbers don't provide me the data I need.

[BLK2012GT]

With you on the bottle maybe. I am not a street racer but a couple of months ago I offered to meet you and line up at Ennis. I showed, ran 10's, and you never bothered to introduce yourself and take that offer up. The way I see it is you spent a lot of money on an 11 sec. car. History isn't on your side when making claims.



Like I mentioned in this post:
http://www.dfw50s.com/showpost.php?p=48018&postcount=6

....I need more data before saying it is worth spending the extra $1K on a CJ setup. I'll update the sticky as we capture more info. Someone else's dyno numbers don't provide me the data I need.

There's no point of arguing with you about your car and my car on the streets. One you know everything and anything about these coyotes (ok) and two you don't street race. Prime example my car is faster then what it appears at the track, I race a person in this group and we ran the same time and mph at the track. But we did a 30 roll starting in 2nd gear in mexico and I walked him like he was standing still. It wasn't even a close race. But I expected that since I make 100 rwhp then he does. So if we did ever race on the streets I don't think your car has a chance against mine. Sorry that's my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

[re-rx7]

Settle it on the hwy with a go pro.

[BLK2012GT]

Settle it on the hwy with a go pro.

LOL it won't happen. He doesn't street race. Which is fine cause I don't track race only.

[re-rx7]

Well at least throw an invitation to him. Be courteous sir lol.

[BLK2012GT]

Well at least throw an invitation to him. Be courteous sir lol.

I'm pretty sure by saying his car can't beat mine on the streets is an invitation in itself.:hidesbehindsofa::leghump:

[BLK2012GT]

But lets get back on topic of the two IM.:word:

[re-rx7]

I think things would have went smoother had they just contributed to the conversation vs bashing and acting like king dick.

[Dominic Toretto]

....I need more data before saying it is worth spending the extra $1K on a CJ setup.

Maybe to you. Maybe to other people they have already decided it is or isn't worth it just based on this. Assigning a dollar value to horsepower is on an individual and case-by-case scenario. So even when you draw your own conclusion, other people might not feel the same as you.

I'll update the sticky as we capture more info. Someone else's dyno numbers don't provide me the data I need.

That's fine and I respect that. But as you already stated, the CJ makes more power than the Boss. I really don't understand what the problem is here lol.

-Alex

[BLK2012GT]

I think things would have went smoother had they just contributed to the conversation vs bashing and acting like king dick.

I will say they do know what they are talking about to a point. Not everyone here drag races. And that's all they are baseing their knowledge off of. To me unless you are trying to get the most hp out if your car the CJ isn't worth the money over the boss manifold and a TB.

[wbt]

There's no point of arguing with you about your car and my car on the streets. One you know everything and anything about these coyotes (ok) and two you don't street race. Prime example my car is faster then what it appears at the track, I race a person in this group and we ran the same time and mph at the track. But we did a 30 roll starting in 2nd gear in mexico and I walked him like he was standing still. It wasn't even a close race. But I expected that since I make 100 rwhp then he does. So if we did ever race on the streets I don't think your car has a chance against mine. Sorry that's my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

I have far too much to loose getting caught street racing or killing someone else doing it. I would expect someone with a new kid to consider the consequences.

Same offer I made before, I'll line up anytime at the track.

I think things would have went smoother had they just contributed to the conversation vs bashing and acting like king dick.

Really? Not a matter of being a dick. Jeff made a snide comment, as usual, and he got it in return.

Maybe to you. Maybe to other people they have already decided it is or isn't worth it just based on this. Assigning a dollar value to horsepower is on an individual and case-by-case scenario. So even when you draw your own conclusion, other people might not feel the same as you.



That's fine and I respect that. But as you already stated, the CJ makes more power than the Boss. I really don't understand what the problem is here lol.

-Alex

A repeat of what I posted.
http://www.dfw50s.com/showpost.php?p=48134&postcount=39

I have no issue outside of some of the comments. My whole thing is don't rely solely on dyno numbers. CAI's are a perfect example, Jeff's car is a perfect example.


I will say they do know what they are talking about to a point. Not everyone here drag races. And that's all they are baseing their knowledge off of. To me unless you are trying to get the most hp out if your car the CJ isn't worth the money over the boss manifold and a TB.

Explain to everyone what data you have accumulated street racing that shows the CJ intake isn't worth the extra money?

[BLK2012GT]

I have far too much to loose getting caught street racing or killing someone else doing it. I would expect someone with a new kid to consider the consequences.

Same offer I made before, I'll line up anytime at the track.



Really? Not a matter of being a dick. Jeff made a snide comment, as usual, and he got it in return.



A repeat of what I posted.
http://www.dfw50s.com/showpost.php?p=48134&postcount=39

I have no issue outside of some of the comments. My whole thing is don't rely solely on dyno numbers. CAI's are a perfect example, Jeff's car is a perfect example.




Explain to everyone what data you have accumulated street racing that shows the CJ intake isn't worth the extra money?

You can get hurt or worst at the track to. You pick and choose your areas where you want to race on the street.

And I made a remark cause your buddy misread what I wrote and said a shitty comment.

And from what I seen from other cars there really isn't that much gain for an extra 500-1100 dollars. The price varies cause people might buy TB for the boss manifold.

And actually my car isn't a perfect example. Like I posted before I race a person in this group who ran the same time as me. But when we raced on the street I killed him by a lot of car lengths.

[blownaltered]

You can get hurt or worst at the track to. You pick and choose your areas where you want to race on the street.

And I made a remark cause your buddy misread what I wrote and said a shitty comment.

And from what I seen from other cars there really isn't that much gain for an extra 500-1100 dollars. The price varies cause people might buy TB for the boss manifold.

And actually my car isn't a perfect example. Like I posted before I race a person in this group who ran the same time as me. But when we raced on the street I killed him by a lot of car lengths.

Man that wbt guy has a hard on for you for some reason. I like how he keeps comparing his auto stall car that he races every weekend and has set it up for that to you car which was just finished and has only been to the track once. That's a good comparison.

[Dominic Toretto]

I have far too much to loose getting caught street racing or killing someone else doing it. I would expect someone with a new kid to consider the consequences.

Thanks mom.

Because racing on a track is without consequences or safety hazards. I feel sorry for people that are scared too enjoy life to the point where they have to try to critique others for doing so.

-Alex

[Grandpa]

I see both sides of it. You both have very solid points. I just think you are both doing different things.

I like WBT's technical side of posting, but it's heavily track based, which is cool, but doesn't apply to everyone as far as use goes. I DO agree with WBT it's going to be up to the individual owner if the CJ intake is going to be worth the $1k, or settle for the cheaper Boss.


Side note - Jeff, solid posts and well done on keeping your cool bro! :)

[Dan12GT]

I'd like to see the time slips on both those runs. 1 1/10 of a second isn't what I would call measurable evidence.

[Dominic Toretto]

My whole thing is don't rely solely on dyno numbers.

As long as I have been around cars, the ONLY method of determining the power output of an engine, is a dyno. What else are you using to determine power levels?

-Alex

[Grandpa]

Let's keep this on topic with racing/cars. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. We're all adults here, lets behave as such.

[BLK2012GT]

As long as I have been around cars, the ONLY method of determining the power output of an engine, is a dyno. What else are you using to determine power levels?

-Alex

The track is a good way to but to a point.

[Dominic Toretto]

The track is a good way to but to a point.

How will a track tell you how much power an engine generates?

-Alex

[BLK2012GT]

How will a track tell you how much power an engine generates?

-Alex

My bad misread what you typed.

[Dominic Toretto]

My bad misread what you typed.

I figured you did, no worries :).

-Alex

[Grandpa]

As long as I have been around cars, the ONLY method of determining the power output of an engine, is a dyno. What else are you using to determine power levels?

-Alex

He is using the tried and true way of measuring performance by using track data. Datalogging, ET's, MPH, 0-60, shifts, temps, etc.

WBT is correct in saying that dyno results mean very little. How the car performs in it's intended envoirment is really the only proper way to determine accurate results.

Some of us old folk were doing this long before the use of dynos were the norm. I use to tune my blower cars the old fashion way with a timing light, reading plugs, fuel pressure and checking tire prints. We had no idea (nor did we care) what the car made at the tires. It was how the car performed.

Now that dynos are everywhere and technology is common place that most people don't know how to work on their cars anymore without a programmer in their hands that the dyno numbers have become more about bragging rights or measuring how a car "should" run.

It happens all the time a car makes great power on the dyno and doesn't run like it should according to what one thinks it should. Same goes for the other way, some cars dyno like ass but run like a scalded ape on the street.

It all comes down to a solid tune, a proper set up and a driver who knows how to optimize all of it to take advantage of it.

[wbt]

No need for this info.

[BLK2012GT]

You're right. The track doesn't have EMS or safety rules to help prevent people from crashing or getting hurt.



What you said was wrong and was corrected.



Let's break the price difference down:

CJ intake - $720 from Tousley
GT500TB - $100 from Tousley
Intake tube - I paid $90 for a 2010 GT intake tube from Airaid and modified it to fit my existing Airaid airbox.

Total cost: $910

Boss intake - $473 from Tousley
Intake tube - $167 from Autoplicity
No need to replace the stock 80mm throttle body. No gains there.

Total cost: $640

Difference: $270

If you have a Boss intake already and want to move to the CJ you spent quite a bit of extra money. If you are running the stock intake and haven't decided, an extra $270 over the Boss setup isn't going to break the bank.



Sure it is. Puts up great dyno numbers (500+ WHP) and runs a 119MPH trap speed.

Yet I crushed a car that runs the same mph that makes less power then me. I'm pretty sure I would pick up mph if I was able to launch the car at higher rpms instead of at 3k rpms.

[BLK2012GT]

Man that wbt guy has a hard on for you for some reason. I like how he keeps comparing his auto stall car that he races every weekend and has set it up for that to you car which was just finished and has only been to the track once. That's a good comparison.

He sure does cause he is only quoting me now and no one else. I must be his type. LOL:hitit:

[Dominic Toretto]

He is using the tried and true way of measuring performance

What about measuring horsepower and torque(which is what this thread is about)?

-Alex

[blownaltered]

What about measuring horsepower and torque(which is what this thread is about)?

-Alex

It does to an extent. If you have ever been to ffw you will see everyone of the guys running fast cars with their lab tops out after every race adjusting crap. The dyno is generally a base line but for true tuning you need to data log on the street or track and adjust from there. That's where you will get your best tune for all around performance.

[wbt]

No need for this info.

[Dominic Toretto]

For future reference, can I expect the same arbitrary commentary if another two similar parts are being compared for measuring power output?

-Alex

[Grandpa]

What about measuring horsepower and torque(which is what this thread is about)?

-Alex


Yes, the original topic was comparing the two intakes to see which performed better. Where it went astray is difference of opinions of different driving/racing preferences.

You mentioned dynos. Dynos are merely a tool to get a car tuned. But guys like WBT are constantly tinkering with their own tunes to optimize the set up for the track. Where the dyno subject loses focus is where people use the dyno as a measuring stick for performance. Peak numbers mean SQUAT.

Dyno numbers can be manipulated in many ways on a dyno be it settings, load or whatever else have you. A number of other things can effect it as well, weather, trans type, gearing, convertors and so on.

Just because car A makes more power than car B, doesn't mean its faster. There are other factors involved, suspension, weight, driving style, auto vs manual and so on. There is FAR more to it all than just peak dyno numbers.

[Dominic Toretto]

Yes, the original topic was comparing the two intakes to see which performed better. Where it went astray is difference of opinions of different driving/racing preferences.

You mentioned dynos. Dynos are merely a tool to get a car tuned. But guys like WBT are constantly tinkering with their own tunes to optimize the set up for the track. Where the dyno subject loses focus is where people use the dyno as a measuring stick for performance. Peak numbers mean SQUAT.

Dyno numbers can be manipulated in many ways on a dyno be it settings, load or whatever else have you. A number of other things can effect it as well, weather, trans type, gearing, convertors and so on.

Just because car A makes more power than car B, doesn't mean its faster. There are other factors involved, suspension, weight, driving style, auto vs manual and so on. There is FAR more to it all than just peak dyno numbers.

This is post #7 on the first page.

True. But this thread isn't about lap times, it's about the performance gains of a particular modification vs. similar part. Plain and simple.

It's a moot point really. You can dial in a car's system for a particular track and use the same setup and be less effective at another track. All things being equal, tires, LCAs, gearing, shocks, transmission, cage, harness etc, would you prefer to have more or less power than you have now?

-Alex

Yup.

-Alex

[Dominic Toretto]

Not sure how derailed this thread will be in the morning but I expect it to be just as "entertaining" as it has been. You guys have a good night.

-Alex

[Grandpa]

Not sure how derailed this thread will be in the morning but I expect it to be just as "entertaining" as it has been. You guys have a good night.

-Alex

No worries. It's just a discussion. We're all here for the same reason, just doing it different ways. Have a good nights rest. :)

[wbt]

No need for this info.

[kdanner]

So with that being said. The only difference between the boss 302 intake and cj is the fact your have to run a gt500 tb and cai. So that giving you the extra hp.

You forgot the larger plenum, especially in the rear, which provides room for the full bellmouths on all the runners, which the Boss does not have. This is the most important thing.

Here's the thing. They live at the track and only care about what happens at the track. I really could careless what my car does. I always wanted a black/black 6 spd 500 rwhp NA and big shot of nitrous. Guess what i have it. And I highly doubt their bolt on car would beat my car on the hwy.

Well I haven't drag raced my car since June of 2012, but I made some 180 MPH runs on an unprepared surface which other than being rougher than the typical highway is no different than what you're talking about. Lots of blown cars couldn't keep up with me in a full mile. Now be careful, remember what happened the last time you mouthed off about how you were going to beat everyone.

LOL it won't happen. He doesn't street race. Which is fine cause I don't track race only.

You want some street action do you? You REALLY sure that is what you want? What's the excuse going to be when you lose there?

As long as I have been around cars, the ONLY method of determining the power output of an engine, is a dyno. What else are you using to determine power levels?

I race cars, not engines. Horsepower is only a part of the big picture.

[Dominic Toretto]

No worries. It's just a discussion. We're all here for the same reason, just doing it different ways. Have a good nights rest. :)

Well rested. Looks like everyone has calmed down :)

My posts were simply saying don't consider dyno numbers as gospel. I have said it multiple times. No other way I can explain it.

If you guys want to get hung up on dyno numbers no problem. My car has never seen a dyno and would probably make around 250 at the tire but it has run 10's at every major track in Texas and has done so in every season of the year.

I'll stick to datalogging and track testing under real world conditions to evaluate effectiveness of performance parts. :waytogo:

I agree with everything you are saying.

I race cars, not engines. Horsepower is only a part of the big picture.

No one is disagreeing with that.

-Alex

[Blazer707]

Damn I just read this whole thread, I made the thread over on svtp. It was just meant to be a same day back to back (within 1 1/2 hour) dyno pulls of a boss intake to CJ intake to see a basic gain. Nothing more and nothing less. WBT and kdanner are right with dyno numbers mean nothing at all. The real difference will be at the track and that's it. My thread is just 1% added to CJ intake manifold knowledge and that is it.

[Yagermeister]

Thank you to everyone testing the CJ intake for me :) Thank you for all of your data and I'm looking forward to final results from everyone!