Suspension help.

[2012mustang76123]

Finally got forgestars and installed them so now its time for lowering too make it look perfect.

Not going to track car or race just daily driver.

Lower car now or wait few weeks and save for coilover r1/r2 kit? Will the cost be justified by the performance of coilovers on a daily driver?

Also I dont feel comfortable compressing springs by myself any shop recommendations in south fort worth area or someone I can pay to have this done?

[Kaane]

You don't need a spring compressor. I removed the fronts with just an impact, you just need to HOLD it tight. Rears take like 5 minutes.

Cheap good setup is Koni SRT.T Non adjustables and Steeda Sport Springs. Great look and very good daily driver setup with no harshness.

I would not waste money on coilovers unless you want it slammed or need better spring selection and adjust-ability.

[DarkHorse1350]

You don't need a spring compressor. I removed the fronts with just an impact, you just need to HOLD it tight. Rears take like 5 minutes.

Cheap good setup is Koni SRT.T Non adjustables and Steeda Sport Springs. Great look and very good daily driver setup with no harshness.

I would not waste money on coil-overs unless you want it slammed or need better spring selection and adjust-ability.

I don't agree with the "hold it tight" statement, I have done enough of these to know that a spring compressor is a MUST HAVE to safely replace springs. Plus you can rent them for free at any auto zone.

I do agree that you don't need coil-overs for mostly street use, you will not push the components hard enough on the street to justify the cost, especially when you can get the same look for a fraction of a set of coil-overs.

I have less than $300 including shipping in my set up and could not be happier with the performance and the looks. I have pics in the SR Lowering springs and J&M Panhard bar thread.

[2012mustang76123]

Thanks for info now looking for someone to install it, i'll mess with really anything on a car except suspension or ac items.

so is panhard a worthwhile investment or will just springs alone be good?

[03MachMe]

You need a pgb

[jayman33]

I just got done installing Koni STR.T with hotchkis sport springs on abou 5 cars this week. Everyone loves them and the price right now is pretty damn hard to beat. You will most likely need a PHB, not for a suspension upgrade per se but to align your rear axle.

Give us a shout, we have plenty of koni and Hotchkis in stock.

[El_Tortuga]

You don't need a spring compressor. I removed the fronts with just an impact, you just need to HOLD it tight. Rears take like 5 minutes.

Cheap good setup is Koni SRT.T Non adjustables and Steeda Sport Springs. Great look and very good daily driver setup with no harshness.

I would not waste money on coilovers unless you want it slammed or need better spring selection and adjust-ability.

Yikes. Free compressor rental @ Autozone. Why not be safe, especially with the longer stockers coming off?

[Kaane]

yes, to be safe use a spring compressor. disregard my method lol :)

[46Tbird]

Yikes. Free compressor rental @ Autozone. Why not be safe, especially with the longer stockers coming off?

Did mine and two others without a spring compressor, and I'm here to tell the tale! It's amazin'.

[2012mustang76123]

had some amazon gc's to use so ordered hotchkins springs and bar.

[onesick5.0]

Do u need an adjustable phb just to drop the heighth 1.5 inches? I got some lowering sprkngs and would love to put them on but If the phb is recommended I'll just buy one before doing the work all together

[03MachMe]

Do u need an adjustable phb just to drop the heighth 1.5 inches? I got some lowering sprkngs and would love to put them on but If the phb is recommended I'll just buy one before doing the work all together

The way the suspension in these cars is set up any lowing will push the axle to the driver side, obviously the more the drop the more it pushes it. Is it 100% needed with only a 1.5in drop, not really but might as well so it all at once and do it right

[Fair]

Holy cow... No, when installing lowering springs on a coilover/McPherson strut car like the Mustang you DO need a spring compressor. Very much so! A typical S197 front spring makes about 100-110 pounds of force per inch of compression, and the stock spring is compressed about 4", even at full droop... so there are 400+ pounds of force ready to come loose when you zing off the strut top nut.

Here are some step-by-step pictures below that show the process of installing a lowering spring on an S197: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-WV8k2xr/0/S/DSC_6022-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-WV8k2xr/0/XL/DSC_6022-XL.jpg) http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-JPHG8bk/0/S/DSC_6024-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-JPHG8bk/0/XL/DSC_6024-XL.jpg)

Granted, that is a camber plate install gallery, but most of the steps apply to doing a lowering spring install. You still have to remove the strut assembly from the car, compress the spring, remove the strut top mount and upper perch, swap the spring, and reinstall in the reverse order.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-RZKZ6Vg/1/S/DSC_6050-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-RZKZ6Vg/1/XL/DSC_6050-XL.jpg) http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-fMbvdmP/0/S/DSC_0963-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-fMbvdmP/0/XL/DSC_0963-XL.jpg)

Of course, if you are going to all of that effort to swap the springs, it is zero extra effort to swap in some Vorshlag camber plates, hehe. :) But if you have no intentions of ever doing any autocross, track driving or canyon carving, then you don't "need" more negative camber or positive caster adjustment.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Tyler-Rogers-2012-Mustang-GT/i-47zvrSr/0/O/smallerGif.gif

One thing that always trips people up when they slap on lowering springs: if you keep the same OEM length struts, the amount that you are lowering the car with the new springs is the same amount that you will lose in suspension bump travel.

So, let's say you have 2" of bump travel stock, and you lower the car 1.5"... how much will the suspension have to move under compression before you are slamming into the bump stops? Answer = 1/2".

THAT is why most "lowered car" ride so poorly - the struts are not shortened to accommodate this loss of bump travel. But who is going to make shorter than stock struts that are made for an OEM spring? (answer - one company, shown below) For a properly designed coilover strut made to run at lower ride heights we always shorten the strut body considerably, to compensate. This will lose "total suspension stroke" but often gain inches of bump travel over the standard "lowering spring on stock struts" kind of install.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Bilstein-Shocks/i-t3XzfkS/0/S/1_DSC8420-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Bilstein-Shocks/i-t3XzfkS/0/XL/1_DSC8420-XL.jpg) http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Tyler-Rogers-2012-Mustang-GT/i-ttVNRwd/1/S/_DSC8498%20copy-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Tyler-Rogers-2012-Mustang-GT/i-ttVNRwd/1/XL/_DSC8498%20copy-XL.jpg)

But good coilvoers cost from $2500-3000 and up for these cars (and by good I mean "Not Chinese", not KW, and not twin tubes). So we came up with an alternative for lowering Mustangs without busting the bank... a Bilstein inverted monotube strut that is 1.25" shorter than stock length S197 struts. We couple these with our camber plates and several lowering spring choices, build it all into a strut assembly ready to install, then sell it for $1499 (http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=559). It is very popular because... it gains back that 1.25" in compression travel when lowered. And you don't re-use anything from the old strut/spring/upper mount assembly, so the install takes half the time and you don't need a spring compressor.

Not trying to sell you on something, more of a warning of what will likely happen when you lower the car using the same stock length struts. This issue happens with OEM, Konis, Tokicos, and just about anything else made to use the OEM style springs, other than the Bilstein monotube shown above.

If the ride doesn't matter to you, and crashing around on the bump stops is not a worry, then feel free to ignore all of this. We tend to hear from customers who have already "Been there, done that" with the lower spring only solutions and are finally looking for better ride quality, more performance, AND the lowered ride height. It can be done if you know what to get...

Cheers,

[03MachMe]

Holy cow... No, when installing lowering springs on a coilover/McPherson strut car like the Mustang you DO need a spring compressor. Very much so! A typical S197 front spring makes about 100-110 pounds of force per inch of compression, and the stock spring is compressed about 4", even at full droop... so there are 400+ pounds of force ready to come loose when you zing off the strut top nut.

Here are some step-by-step pictures below that show the process of installing a lowering spring on an S197: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-WV8k2xr/0/S/DSC_6022-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-WV8k2xr/0/XL/DSC_6022-XL.jpg) http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-JPHG8bk/0/S/DSC_6024-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-JPHG8bk/0/XL/DSC_6024-XL.jpg)

Granted, that is a camber plate install gallery, but most of the steps apply to doing a lowering spring install. You still have to remove the strut assembly from the car, compress the spring, remove the strut top mount and upper perch, swap the spring, and reinstall in the reverse order.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-RZKZ6Vg/1/S/DSC_6050-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-RZKZ6Vg/1/XL/DSC_6050-XL.jpg) http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-fMbvdmP/0/S/DSC_0963-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Instructions/S197-Mustang-camber-plates/i-fMbvdmP/0/XL/DSC_0963-XL.jpg)

Of course, if you are going to all of that effort to swap the springs, it is zero extra effort to swap in some Vorshlag camber plates, hehe. :) But if you have no intentions of ever doing any autocross, track driving or canyon carving, then you don't "need" more negative camber or positive caster adjustment.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Tyler-Rogers-2012-Mustang-GT/i-47zvrSr/0/O/smallerGif.gif

One thing that always trips people up when they slap on lowering springs: if you keep the same OEM length struts, the amount that you are lowering the car with the new springs is the same amount that you will lose in suspension bump travel.

So, let's say you have 2" of bump travel stock, and you lower the car 1.5"... how much will the suspension have to move under compression before you are slamming into the bump stops? Answer = 1/2".

THAT is why most "lowered car" ride so poorly - the struts are not shortened to accommodate this loss of bump travel. But who is going to make shorter than stock struts that are made for an OEM spring? (answer - one company, shown below) For a properly designed coilover strut made to run at lower ride heights we always shorten the strut body considerably, to compensate. This will lose "total suspension stroke" but often gain inches of bump travel over the standard "lowering spring on stock struts" kind of install.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Bilstein-Shocks/i-t3XzfkS/0/S/1_DSC8420-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-Pictures/Bilstein-Shocks/i-t3XzfkS/0/XL/1_DSC8420-XL.jpg) http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Tyler-Rogers-2012-Mustang-GT/i-ttVNRwd/1/S/_DSC8498%20copy-S.jpg (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Tyler-Rogers-2012-Mustang-GT/i-ttVNRwd/1/XL/_DSC8498%20copy-XL.jpg)

But good coilvoers cost from $2500-3000 and up for these cars (and by good I mean "Not Chinese", not KW, and not twin tubes). So we came up with an alternative for lowering Mustangs without busting the bank... a Bilstein inverted monotube strut that is 1.25" shorter than stock length S197 struts. We couple these with our camber plates and several lowering spring choices, build it all into a strut assembly ready to install, then sell it for $1499 (http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=559). It is very popular because... it gains back that 1.25" in compression travel when lowered. And you don't re-use anything from the old strut/spring/upper mount assembly, so the install takes half the time and you don't need a spring compressor.

Not trying to sell you on something, more of a warning of what will likely happen when you lower the car using the same stock length struts. This issue happens with OEM, Konis, Tokicos, and just about anything else made to use the OEM style springs, other than the Bilstein monotube shown above.

If the ride doesn't matter to you, and crashing around on the bump stops is not a worry, then feel free to ignore all of this. We tend to hear from customers who have already "Been there, done that" with the lower spring only solutions and are finally looking for better ride quality, more performance, AND the lowered ride height. It can be done if you know what to get...

Cheers,

do you have to use the CC plates with these shocks? or do they work with stock / GT500 strut mounts. I was talking to brandon about this the other day

[Fair]

do you have to use the CC plates with these shocks? or do they work with stock / GT500 strut mounts. I was talking to brandon about this the other day

They are made to work with the stock top mounts as well - we just package them with springs + camber plates and pre-assemble it all. We can sell them without the plates or springs, too.

[03MachMe]

They are made to work with the stock top mounts as well - we just package them with springs + camber plates and pre-assemble it all. We can sell them without the plates or springs, too.

awesome! I will be contacting yall for just the shocks/ struts soon. are they adjustable?

[DirtyD]

awesome! I will be contacting yall for just the shocks/ struts soon. are they adjustable?
based on the hole in the top of the piston and the size of the piston shaft compared to the stock strut, I think they are.

[modernbeat]

awesome! I will be contacting yall for just the shocks/ struts soon. are they adjustable?

No, but because they use a large piston in a monotube construction they don't have to be adjustable to offer the same (or better) performance as an entry level adjustable.

[Kaane]

Fair any reason you don't like KW?

[03MachMe]

No, but because they use a large piston in a monotube construction they don't have to be adjustable to offer the same (or better) performance as an entry level adjustable.

ah I know you guys know your stuff so I'll trust you on this one.

[DirtyD]

No, but because they use a large piston in a monotube construction they don't have to be adjustable to offer the same (or better) performance as an entry level adjustable.

Are those the bilstien pro series or something like that in which there is a self valving disk of some sort inside that controls the rebound and dampening pretty much by itself?

[modernbeat]

Fair any reason you don't like KW?

The commonly available KW V-series and ST-series are twin tube dampers with fairly small pistons. That's the issue with the KW series.

[modernbeat]

Are those the bilstien pro series or something like that in which there is a self valving disk of some sort inside that controls the rebound and dampening pretty much by itself?

No, you might be thinking of the Koni FSD, another crutch for a twin tube to make them work on the street while providing some performance.

The large body Bilsteins are a simple damper. There are no gimmicks. Their performance comes from having a large diameter piston. By using a large piston there is a large amount of flow through the piston at very low suspension speeds. That large amount of flow allows a normal shim stack (valving) to have both a finer and greater effect on the damping force. We can build a great digressive curve that builds force very quickly with a very flat blowoff past the knee by using a large piston. When using a small piston, like most twin tubes, we can either build force quickly, or blow it off cleanly, but not both.

This simple construction also contributes to the longevity of the damper. Fewer moving parts that have to be built to extreme tolerances, and more robust seals will help any damper last longer.

[DirtyD]

No, you might be thinking of the Koni FSD, another crutch for a twin tube to make them work on the street while providing some performance.

The large body Bilsteins are a simple damper. There are no gimmicks. Their performance comes from having a large diameter piston. By using a large piston there is a large amount of flow through the piston at very low suspension speeds. That large amount of flow allows a normal shim stack (valving) to have both a finer and greater effect on the damping force. We can build a great digressive curve that builds force very quickly with a very flat blowoff past the knee by using a large piston. When using a small piston, like most twin tubes, we can either build force quickly, or blow it off cleanly, but not both.

This simple construction also contributes to the longevity of the damper. Fewer moving parts that have to be built to extreme tolerances, and more robust seals will help any damper last longer.
Man, talk about knowing your stuff. :bowdown:

I'm prepared for the worst, but can I ask you opinion on the Tokico D-Specs for a simple street/DD application with the possibility of AutoX in the future?

[modernbeat]

Man, talk about knowing your stuff. :bowdown:

I'm prepared for the worst, but can I ask you opinion on the Tokico D-Specs for a simple street/DD application with the possibility of AutoX in the future?

I haven't worked with them on the S197, but in my experience with them on Subarus I'd only put them on a car I didn't care about. Again, they are twin tubes and they don't have the best longevity.

[DirtyD]

I haven't worked with them on the S197, but in my experience with them on Subarus I'd only put them on a car I didn't care about. Again, they are twin tubes and they don't have the best longevity.
Fair enough. The long term plan is for a setup like y'all have with the Bilstiens or go with coilovers...but I needed something besides the stock struts on my BMR springs to give me a little better ride and some adjustability when I'd like it.

I have a lot of learning to do about suspension stuff...which I'm sure will take years.